Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => GNU/Linux Discussion => Topic started by: Parthpanchal on October 16, 2018, 01:58:07 am

Title: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: Parthpanchal on October 16, 2018, 01:58:07 am
Linux Mint has many troubles:

Linux Mint mixes Ubuntu and Debian programs (see right here)

because of the combination of Debian and Ubuntu programs, when an replace is released that breaks Mint, the maintainers blacklist it until it works again, even though it's far a safety improve. (be aware: they don't try to restoration it, they just blacklist it)

Mint would not publish CVEs, and also you can not check if you are vulnerable due to the fact you don't know wherein a certain package deal came from.

while certainly one of their applications has the identical name as a upstream package, they block the bundle and update it with theirs. for instance, the bundle mdm consists of Utilities for single-host parallel shell scripting, however, in Linux Mint (and simplest Linux Mint), the mdm bundle is the Mint show supervisor(aka a a dead ringer for gdm).

safety updates are optionally available.

by using default, using the update manager, you won't get updates for crucial elements of the device(xorg, systemd, kernel), even security updates.

using old kernels means that more recent hardware isn't supported

you may possibly have a higher time with Ubuntu(or another distro) MATE or by installing Cinnamon
on Ubuntu(we really want a Ubuntu Cinnamon Spin) than with Linux Mint.

So, are we able to forestall recommending Linux Mint to novices? because they may run into a great deal more troubles than with any other distro and will get the incorrect picture of what a (true) Linux distro should be.
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 16, 2018, 08:58:36 am
Whilst I agree Mint make some weird decisions (just my opinion), there is no "correct" way for a distro to function .. that's kinda the point of Linux, there are many groups with differing opinions of what is "right", thankfully Linux allows for ALL of them to be catered for.

Mint is usually pretty stable precisely BECAUSE of the changes you mention .. whether they are the 'best' idea from a security/hardware support standpoint could be a valid discussion .. but then that's the point, there are trade-offs to be made and Mint are just choosing their own position. I see no problem with that.

Instead of trying to push ones own idea of 'the correct way' for a distro to be built and function, wouldn't it be better to simply EXPLAIN to new users the possible pitfalls (and benefits) from a particular distro choice and let the user decide where THEIR priorities lie?

I for one will NOT stop recommending Mint to  new users (though obviously I'd point them at Peppermint first ;)).

The Linux community (including Peppermint) have benefited MASSIVELY from Linux Mint .. Cinnamon/a lot of MATE development/x-apps/their update manager (which is IMHO the best out there) and a ton of other utilities/apps/tweaks to Gnome stuff .. Cinnamon and MATE have also likely moderated Gnome's 'just remove it' excesses.

I personally have zero problem with Mint .. unlike a LOT of other projects they keep **most** of their custom utilities/apps modular so others can use them. Take Nemo for example, it's easy for us to use it in LXDE as it's modular.. we tried the same thing with MATE's Caja, but it's been designed in a m control thore holistic way and depends on mate-session for desktop control settings, in other words they can't easily be separated so if you want Caja to also control the desktop you're pretty much stuck with using mate-session. I'm a HUGE fan of modularity (it's what made/makes Linux great in the first place) and hate this new holistic "all or nothing" approach the newer DE's taking, so I applaud Mint.

In an case, pretty much all the charges you lay at Mint in deviating from 'upstream' could be levelled at Ubuntu or Manjaro (or most other distros) .. do you want to live in a Linux world with only top tier distros and limited options ?

I'l agree Mint isn't my cup of tea (for some of the reasons you describe), but to say it shouldn't be recommended to new users is a bit over the top, and would imply I thought MY opinions were better informed or more important than others.

Mint is a great distro, and has come a long way since it was basically just Ubuntu in a green skin with codecs pre-installed .. Now EVERYONE benefits from their existence, not just their users.

Choose whichever distro suits YOU, but at the same time remember your reasoning is personal to you, there is no 'correct' one-size-fits-all approach to how a distro should function (thank god) .. and can the Linux community PLEASE stop this "my distro is better than yours" crap that simply detracts from what's good about Linux as a whole, this squabbling does nobody any good (except maybe Microsoft and Apple) ;)
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 16, 2018, 09:10:35 am
I moved this to the GNU/Linux Discussion board because it's not a help request.

My personal philosophy has always been to not suggest any specific distro. If someone asks me what I've used and like, or if I like a certain distro, I'll give my honest thoughts. However, my thinking has always been that Linux is free, so why not try some different distros and see what suits you? That's what I did, and that's what led me here about 8 years ago. I was actually running Linux Mint KDE (I think, Mint 9) when I found Peppermint.

Linux Mint is a good distribution. Their core ethos (IE: blocking certain updates) shouldn't be a reason to not suggest it. I mean, every distro has their quirks. Plus, you can easily update to the latest kernel in Mint the same way you can in any other distro using APT, through the terminal. I'd actually recommend any Mint user do that every once in a while, to keep up with those kernel security updates. But, having to do that isn't going to make it a bad distro, just one with a different way of doing things.

Having to update to fix errors out of the box is also all too common, I'm afraid. And, not just with Linux, with Windows and Mac OS as well.
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 16, 2018, 09:31:54 am
Couldn't agree more .. pick what suits YOU not what suits someone else, there are pro's and con's to ALL distros/OS's, but in the Linux world at least WE get to make that choice :)

PERSONALLY, I don't like Arch/Gentoo/Fedora/etc. (all for differing reasons) .. but it would be extremely presumptuous of me to think mine is the ONLY valid opinion/standpoint.
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pin on October 16, 2018, 09:56:47 am
Yeap! Pick the one you like. Or the ones you like... I don't make a secret about the ones I use  :)
If you don't like something, stay away from it  ;) it still is mostly open source, right?
Making a suggestion is one thing, imposing it is another.

@PCNetSpec
What's you don't like about Gentoo? It's one of those that I haven't tried, but been curious about...
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 16, 2018, 10:29:37 am
@PCNetSpec
What's you don't like about Gentoo? It's one of those that I haven't tried, but been curious about...

For me it's simply too much work .. but my point was, there are many that suggest compiling everything from source is the 'correct/best' 'Linux way' .. when in truth it's just 'correct/best' for THEM, most people just see it as unecessary 'hassle'.
(neither/both are correct)
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pin on October 16, 2018, 10:45:49 am
Thanks! That's actually the reason I haven't tried it... at the same time that's also the reason why it's interesting.
If that makes sense  ;D
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 16, 2018, 10:48:12 am
It does .. which kinda proves the "there's no correct way" thing :)

"Correct" is subjective .. even to oneself :)
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: alynur on October 25, 2018, 01:16:13 pm
I was extremely disappointed with Linux Mint when I was unable to automount my DATA partition, but once I finally got it streightened out, it's not too bad.
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: manyroads on October 26, 2018, 08:15:03 am
[unwanted philosophy]
In many ways Linux mirrors life... many choices and options are available.  Take the ones that seem most appropriate in your situation and fall within your "comfort-zone". What's right will change as your needs, skills and perspectives broaden. 

Always be kind and tolerant to yourself and others...
[/unwanted philosophy]
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: Leviticus on October 31, 2018, 07:03:23 pm
I think Linux Mint's main goal is to create a "gateway distro" for people who wanted an operating system for individuals frustrated with Windows who are new to Linux.  Is it perfect for everyone?  No, but it serves its purpose quite well.  Linux Mint was created from a difference of opinion and branched of from Ubuntu, and it has benefited Debian/*ubuntu.  That is why Linux is great.  You can make it however you want it. 

There are alot of other distros out there that are far worse then Linux Mint.  For example, OpenSuse has a rolling distro, which has promise.  However, if the developers do not have consensus of the proper method of updating it, you know you could be in for some fun.

I always know one thing is true, a bad Linux distro is better than Windows IMO. 
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 31, 2018, 07:20:36 pm
I could never get into OpenSUSE. If I remember correctly, I wasn't fond of their package management 8 or so years ago. I don't know if it's gotten any better. Also, rolling distros can tend to have more issues than ones with stable repositories. Despite their claims to be stable, I've never been able to run Manjaro without issues. And, I won't even go into what I think about Arch, which Manjaro is based on. The only rolling release I've ever had any luck with is PCLinuxOS, probably because it was a more stable rolling release, with stuff actually tested, as opposed to added to the repositories right after being released, bugs and all.
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 31, 2018, 08:22:13 pm
YaST and YaST2 .. Argh that was an experience I'd rather forget.
(along with KDE4.2 which was buggy as hell and heavier than Windows)

Reasons I've never felt the need to revisit OpenSUSE .. though I probably should, if only for information gathering.
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: christianvl on November 01, 2018, 09:59:35 am
I'm a distrohopper and I have no shame in admitting it.

But I do have a few picks that never change. Peppermint is the first one, it's the one I really can depend on. It's always working. Fedora is my second stop. I've been using it since Fedora 7. Nowadays I'm also having a great time using Kde Neon. Hey PCNetSpec, give Neon a try. Kde is surprisingly fast and lean with an awesome look (to a point that LXQt doesn't make much sense).

I've also used OpenSuse for a while and opposing to our friend opinion, I actually had a great time with Yast. It is so much more powerful for managing packages, especially when solving bad dependencies. Mageia is another one that I keep constantly trying, albeit I can't use it for long for having a harder time to set up everything I need for my work (some packages are note in the repos - but this is also changing with the possibility to use Fedora Copr and Suse's OBS).

Arch, Gentoo, BSD's, not my cup of tea...

I'm curious with the future of Fedora.  Fedora Silverblue will soon become the default. I understand it should make the system safer, but it's starting to look a lot like Windows...
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pin on November 01, 2018, 11:13:37 am
Peppermint... Fedora... Kde Neon... OpenSuse... Mageia... 

Arch, Gentoo, BSD's, not my cup of tea...

Do you realize that the difference between the different BSD's is bigger than the difference between all the linux distros that you have listed above?
Actually, you could throw Arch together with the ones you like. All, except Gentoo, use systemd as the init/supervision daemon.

Have you tried all of the BSD's? Otherwise, you shouldn't say that they are not your cup of tea. Did you know that Nvidia support is better on FreeBSD than on Linux? While it doesn't even exist on OpenBSD??

Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: christianvl on November 01, 2018, 11:46:31 am
Do you realize that the difference between the different BSD's is bigger than the difference between all the linux distros that you have listed above?
Actually, you could throw Arch together with the ones you like. All, except Gentoo, use systemd as the init/supervision daemon.

Have you tried all of the BSD's? Otherwise, you shouldn't say that they are not your cup of tea. Did you know that Nvidia support is better on FreeBSD than on Linux? While it doesn't even exist on OpenBSD??

Thank you for pointing that out pin! As a matter of fact, my use was always restricted to the desktop and, to be fair, I've only used FreeBSD a while ago. I can't say anything about Nvidea support... I do remember not having too much trouble with drivers (except wifi drivers back in the day). 
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pin on November 01, 2018, 11:59:54 am
 :)
...and I just use NetBSD  ;)
Please, don't ask me why?  :)
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pepperOS on November 23, 2018, 04:06:48 am
don't get me wrong, but i would love a Linux version with the look and feel off windows XP ore 7.
their are a lot of people that would change because they grew up with that, and made a pc to work for them (except the BSOD off course  :'( )

am a distro hopper as well but no distro could hold as long as peppermint at this moment.
but sometimes you get a bit disappointing like when software form the  software manager app does not work.
wanted to us a simple graphic program like pinta.
starts up and when using it it crashes.
i know their is this forum that will help, but it is sad that these things occur and dent the trust you have in a distro

just like that i had to update, restart and came in some kind of boot loop to the login screen again and again
i later found out that i had not enough space on the hd to go to the updating process.
i did not got a popup that it needed more space before the updates.

so these things can back off potential Linux users and thats a shame.

Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pin on November 23, 2018, 07:42:59 am
Sorry to disagree, but if I wanted windows I would use windows.
Some of us are not windows refugees, some of us choose to run Linux.

Also, I believe that having an idea of the free space you have on the hard drive should be an obvious thing to do, as it is to back-up....

Just my thoughts, you can obviously agree or not  ::)
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pepperOS on November 23, 2018, 07:52:34 am
@pin
i don't know if you know win10 but that is a disaster and sure from the 1803 and up version.

what i meant is that the system did not warn for the lack off hd space it needed for the update.
i need my laptop on daily basis so have to find time to make it a total peppermint machine.
 :)
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: murraymint on November 23, 2018, 09:16:58 am
i would love a Linux version with the look and feel off windows XP ore 7.


There are distros that are supposed to be more like Windows. Zorin and Mint are two that come to mind.
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: pin on November 23, 2018, 09:35:34 am
Unfortunately, I do have to use windows... that's what we have at work  :(
Yes, its now 10.

If you want your linux to look like windows check this out https://b00merang.weebly.com/windows-10.html
I believe there's a version for XP and 7 as well, just look at the github repo...
Title: Re: can we prevent recommending Linux Mint?
Post by: manyroads on November 23, 2018, 10:47:33 am
Lest we forget an open version of Windows (retro)... ReactOS, for those who pine for the good old WinNT days.

see: https://www.reactos.org/