Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => GNU/Linux Discussion => Topic started by: alynur on January 10, 2018, 08:23:50 am

Title: is Linux Mint Junk?(one more update)
Post by: alynur on January 10, 2018, 08:23:50 am
Hi guys, I ask this question because what kind of a distribution is going to break itself whenever an update is performed? I installed Cinnamon 18.3 on one of my partitions and initially it boots up fine and looks like it could be a decent operating system. But after installing software from their Software Manager and doing a an apt update and upgrade, when I reboot I get the "welcome to emergency mode".  For anyone that is new to Linux, this would blow them away! And if you go to their help forum you get all kinds of suggestions from flashing your bios to performing more apt-get update and ugrades, which others are saying that you should never perform because there could be unstable updates and upgrades included. I know that installations can sometimes be a little buggy, as indicated by the posts under installations, but every time? I've reinstalled Mint about four times now and tried doing things a little different and managed to get as many as three good reboots but then BAM, back in emergency mode. As a representative of the Linux world to people who know nothing about Linux, they fail. I might have said screw this, I'll spend the money!
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: murraymint on January 10, 2018, 08:34:26 am
I wouldn't class it as "junk" but their upgrade policy is questionable (advising people not to update kernels, that kind of thing). Just use Peppermint instead ;)
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: pin on January 10, 2018, 08:50:45 am
Linux mint was the first distro I installed and had no such issues with it. But, to be honest I probably didn't stay on it long enough.
There were several things I didn't like, the update policy was one of them, but mostly I left it because it comes with "the kitchen sink" as well. Found myself removing a lot of software I don't need directly after installation.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: Crazy Tux on January 10, 2018, 09:04:43 am
I wouldn't class it as "junk" but their upgrade policy is questionable (advising people not to update kernels, that kind of thing). Just use Peppermint instead ;)

Wrong assumption. Linux Mint update/upgrade policy is not questionable. Mint divide all updates/upgrades in 5 separate levels from required to 'dangerous" (flagged with red colour), see this screenshot (http://segfault.linuxmint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Screenshot-from-2013-11-18-143153.png). By default level 4 and 5 are turned off, any updates/upgrade classified by Mint as level 4 and 5 will not be installed. This means your system will not be broken down by a newer kernel while your system was running just fine with the kernel installed by default (if it ain't broken, don't fix it!) or by any other system file that could harm your system.

Ubuntu however, does not have such update policy. With Ubuntu it is plain simple: everything will be updated and renewed. Whether you want the update or not. And if you face a broken or unstable system after some updates/upgrades... Well, that's your own fault then, isn't it? That's Ubuntu policy while Mint tries to protect you from all of this.

Using peppermint doesn't save you from all of this. Does Peppermint uses the same update policy as Mint? I doubt this since Peppermint is based on.......... Lubuntu! Which uses the same update policy as.......... Ubuntu!!!!

Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: Crazy Tux on January 10, 2018, 09:07:40 am
Linux mint was the first distro I installed and had no such issues with it. But, to be honest I probably didn't stay on it long enough.
There were several things I didn't like, the update policy was one of them, but mostly I left it because it comes with "the kitchen sink" as well. Found myself removing a lot of software I don't need directly after installation.

Be honest, how many software are you removing from Peppermint you really don't need after installation???

The best part of Mint IS the update/upgrade policy (see my previous post why). It's better than Ubuntu since it protects regular users better for unstable/broken systems.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: pin on January 10, 2018, 09:19:34 am
From Peppermint? None!... well, I did remove a few of the ICE SSB's that were games. That's the point. I was ref. to Linux Mint, that comes with stuff I don't need  8)
EDIT: A new kernel will not break your system, you can always boot the previous kernel from the Grub menu
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: Crazy Tux on January 10, 2018, 09:23:24 am

EDIT: A new kernel will not break your system, you can always boot the previous kernel from the Grub menu
Don't be too sure about that! I've seen enough users who were reporting problems after a kernel update regardless the linux distro. I've you run Linux with the default installed kernel and you don't encounter any issues or problems, the best advise is to keep it like that! Again: If it ain't broken, don't fix it!.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: murraymint on January 10, 2018, 09:25:26 am
Linux Mint update/upgrade policy is not questionable.

It is. I've just questioned the wisdom of it, as do many others.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: pin on January 10, 2018, 09:35:05 am
Say, you are running Linux Mint vanilla settings, i.e no kernel updates.
How's your security when things like Meltdown and Spectre come along? Will you keep running the unpatched kernel just because it ain't broken?
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 10, 2018, 09:54:49 am
How long ago was this, alynur?  Right now, I'm having an issue trying to update using either Mint Update or the terminal, because the Ubuntu repositories are struggling right now.  That's probably due to the kernel updates that were just released that are supposed to start "fixing" the vulnerabilities in modern CPUs.  They're probably seeing massive server load right now.  If you didn't get a correct hit on one of the repos and you missed a critical dependency due to it, then that can cause you to go into emergency mode.  If that's the case, your method of updating won't make a bit of difference, as that can happen using either method.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 10, 2018, 10:06:27 am
The best part of Mint IS the update/upgrade policy (see my previous post why). It's better than Ubuntu since it protects regular users better for unstable/broken systems.

Sorry, but you're going to be at odds with a lot of people on this forum over that one.  However, I have a rebuttal argument that literally cannot be countered.

If you've paid attention at all to tech news, you know they've recently found vulnerabilities in all modern CPUs, going back 22 years.  Intel has the worst issues, but AMD and ARM aren't coming away squeaky clean.  There are two forms of attack against this vulnerability, called Meltdown and Spectre.  We've discussed them at length here.  Each one is bad, I can't remember which one affects ARM and AMD, but both can be effective against Intel CPUs.  With these attacks, hackers can find all kinds of things on your system, including passwords, bank info, etc.  The CPU makers are doing nothing about this other than making new "clean" chips, they've left it up to OS devs, specifically kernel devs, to fix this vulnerability in existing chips.  The only way to protect yourself against this vulnerability is with a kernel update.  By default, kernel updates are flagged as level 5 by Mint Update and don't get installed.  By not installing these updates, Mint is leaving all of their users' systems vulnerable to Meltdown and/or Spectre.  Therefore, it's not better than Ubuntu's policy, or ours, in this instance.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: pin on January 10, 2018, 10:13:35 am
@scifidude79
Yeap, that was my point above. Also, not all the vulnerabilities are discussed as heavly as these last two and with Mint's policy you could easily miss crutial security updates.

Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk

Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: alynur on January 10, 2018, 01:21:18 pm
How long ago was this, alynur?  Right now, I'm having an issue trying to update using either Mint Update or the terminal, because the Ubuntu repositories are struggling right now.  That's probably due to the kernel updates that were just released that are supposed to start "fixing" the vulnerabilities in modern CPUs.  They're probably seeing massive server load right now.  If you didn't get a correct hit on one of the repos and you missed a critical dependency due to it, then that can cause you to go into emergency mode.  If that's the case, your method of updating won't make a bit of difference, as that can happen using either method.
Hi scifidude79, this is all happening within the last few days. Crazy Tux may have indicated the problem. Since with all the Ubuntu systems I always run apt update, apt upgrade and dist-upgrade, I may be letting in the kernel killer in an update. The thing of it is, one of the supposed cures was to run all three of those to fix a graphics driver problem one individual was having. if that is the case then Mint should publish a warning to casual users to NEVER perform an apt update or apt upgrade from the terminal. I guess I'll have to reinstall and see how far I can get without getting into the terminal.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: DAMIEN1307 on January 10, 2018, 02:40:17 pm
hi folks...my main driver IS Linux Mint...started with 18.0 cinnamon and have used each rendition up to the present 18.3 cinnamon...i havent had any of the problems that get reported on the LM forum...why?...i do not use questionable foriegn PPAs...i do not uses multiple desktops...i do not try to put square windows pegs into round linux holes like wine or emulators and the list goes on...likewise i just do not have any problems with my second main computer here at home which is peppermint 8 now updated to 8.5 respin...again NO problems...if you cant guess i believe the reason why is i put the K.I.S.S. on any flavour i use...it simply means Keep It Simple Stupid...like anything else in life, the more we muck things up the more that can go wrong...i run 4 levels in mint for updates as well as peppermint...i keep the 5th level on view so i can see what the level 5 update may be and decide to install them only on a case by case basis...it it happens to be marked "beta" like 4 grubs ive seen i will not download...grub is way too necessary if i have to retreat over a burning bridge (ie) bad kernel update, so i will not use beta anything just incase...i have seen way to much mucking about with problems that some people especially newbies are having and hear them saying its junk...what is necessary is to improve your IT skills BEFORE you start mucking about borking your system...i have been working computers of one sort or another for 45 yrs (now, yep thats right, since the early 70s screwing around with them on my ham radio rigs) and have almost always seen that the main problems people have are either PEBCAK or 1D 10 -T difficulties by newbies also compounding the felony of problems by not using the update manager for their regular updates or kernel updates and security updates from their distros own repositories...DAMIEN
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: grafiksinc on January 10, 2018, 08:49:29 pm
Linux Mint is ugly -----No no no I kid.... LOL  ;)

I used Mint since Helena  left Last year and landed here and  never looked back..
As to why I left  - It was the update policy as I got older and wiser  ;D I realized their way of thinking did not sit well with me. - And I must admit the hacking incident pushed me over the fence.

But even further than that,  Pin is right Peppermint really has nothing installed "nearly", even the ICE stuff is minimum  compared to what bigger distros send out
I remember uninstalling Thunderbird/Evolution , Libreoffice, Banshee, Rhythm box,  Brasero etc... those are just a few I remember.
But with peppermint it was just the ICE Apps I did not use.

Peppermint's base install really has nothing installed but the essentials.
For example I prefer Clementine as my music player and  it's nice to not have to uninstall one I don't use and then install the one I like.

At the end of the day Peppermint was my cure for hoppertitus I abandoned all other distros cold turkey, except debian I use that for my database and web servers,  ;)

So hopefully Peppermint will be around for a long time  8) other wise I will go on straight debian.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 10, 2018, 09:03:40 pm
Oooh playtime tomorrow :)
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 10, 2018, 11:49:04 pm
hi folks...my main driver IS Linux Mint...started with 18.0 cinnamon and have used each rendition up to the present 18.3 cinnamon...i havent had any of the problems that get reported on the LM forum...why?...i do not use questionable foriegn PPAs...i do not uses multiple desktops...i do not try to put square windows pegs into round linux holes like wine or emulators and the list goes on...likewise i just do not have any problems with my second main computer here at home which is peppermint 8 now updated to 8.5 respin...again NO problems...if you cant guess i believe the reason why is i put the K.I.S.S. on any flavour i use...it simply means Keep It Simple Stupid...like anything else in life, the more we muck things up the more that can go wrong...i run 4 levels in mint for updates as well as peppermint...i keep the 5th level on view so i can see what the level 5 update may be and decide to install them only on a case by case basis...it it happens to be marked "beta" like 4 grubs ive seen i will not download...grub is way too necessary if i have to retreat over a burning bridge (ie) bad kernel update, so i will not use beta anything just incase...i have seen way to much mucking about with problems that some people especially newbies are having and hear them saying its junk...what is necessary is to improve your IT skills BEFORE you start mucking about borking your system...i have been working computers of one sort or another for 45 yrs (now, yep thats right, since the early 70s screwing around with them on my ham radio rigs) and have almost always seen that the main problems people have are either PEBCAK or 1D 10 -T difficulties by newbies also compounding the felony of problems by not using the update manager for their regular updates or kernel updates and security updates from their distros own repositories...DAMIEN

You need to calm down.

It's pretty much common knowledge that an OS dev can't possibly test every hardware config, so there will be problems that will pop up, such as people running updates and having broken systems.  It happens on here from time to time.  I've ran Ubuntu, Mint and Peppermint successfully in the past and present, going all the way back to Ubuntu 9.10, Mint 10 and Peppermint One.  I've never had a major issue that wasn't my fault (I used to break my systems from time to time, but that's the only way we really learn) in any of them.  However, results will vary.  I've had issues with other Linux operating systems, though.  I've had some where I've installed the system and done nothing more than run updates using whatever update manager the OS had, only to have issues just like alynur is having, while others have had no problems at all.  It happens.

Also, alynur didn't say Mint was junk, the topic has a question mark.  The obvious intent here is to ask about the experiences others have had with the OS.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: DAMIEN1307 on January 11, 2018, 12:47:50 am
hi scifi...relax, im not upset or anything at all...i was just making a general observation that most ( not all ) problems that people have are just usually self inflicted and then they go about thinking the system they are using is junk and is the fault of the distro they are using along with a little impatience because things do not always happen in the time and way they want it too...im really more amused is all...all the distros have their quirks, they just have to find the one that suits them properly...the beauty of linux is one size does not fit all...i have found any number of them really really good, they just have to be patient and LEARN, the difficulties seem to miraculously disappear with the more knowledge that is acquired...so conclusion here is it is not fair to lable any of the distros as "junk" its just that what is right for me or for you may not be right for others and maybe just need a distro thats easier to use for them...every distro ive used, ive taken the time to get to know it and its capabilities and limitations, so its not that something is junk...its just a learning curve...DAMIEN
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: Crazy Tux on January 11, 2018, 05:33:28 am

Sorry, but you're going to be at odds with a lot of people on this forum over that one.  However, I have a rebuttal argument that literally cannot be countered.

If you've paid attention at all to tech news, you know they've recently found vulnerabilities in all modern CPUs, going back 22 years.  Intel has the worst issues, but AMD and ARM aren't coming away squeaky clean.  There are two forms of attack against this vulnerability, called Meltdown and Spectre.  We've discussed them at length here.  Each one is bad, I can't remember which one affects ARM and AMD, but both can be effective against Intel CPUs.  With these attacks, hackers can find all kinds of things on your system, including passwords, bank info, etc.  The CPU makers are doing nothing about this other than making new "clean" chips, they've left it up to OS devs, specifically kernel devs, to fix this vulnerability in existing chips.  The only way to protect yourself against this vulnerability is with a kernel update.  By default, kernel updates are flagged as level 5 by Mint Update and don't get installed.  By not installing these updates, Mint is leaving all of their users' systems vulnerable to Meltdown and/or Spectre.  Therefore, it's not better than Ubuntu's policy, or ours, in this instance.

I believe that some of you are mixing up 2 things here.  What happens right now with the modern CPU's wasn't known 22 years ago and in my opinion, this has also nothing to do with the update/upgrade policy of Mint. The issue right now is more a hardware issue which  cannot be fixed by any software update/upgrade but can only be fixed by designing CPU's which doesn't have this fault on-board.

You all are hammering on the Meltdown/Spectre issue like it has really really bad influence on any update policy of any distro. Wrong assumption!

What i tried to explain here is that Ubuntu installs all updates/upgrades without compromises which could lead to a broken system or unstable system. Mint however tries to avoid this situations for their users to sort out all updates/upgrades into levels were level 4 and level 5 updates/upgrades are blocked by default  (see the screenshot i whit type of updates).  Read also this blog of Clem Lefebvre: http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2013/11/answering-controversy-stability-vs-security-is-something-you-configure/. hopefully this will explain better.

And again, don't mix up 2 different things..... Today's issue with modern CPU's has nothing to do with Mint's or Ubuntu's update policy......



HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131
Point proven....
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: pin on January 11, 2018, 06:13:36 am
The example you gave was most probably due to the patched kernel being released. The Ubuntu servers could have been overloaded and some dependencies got screwed-up or/and in the rush to release the patches, not enough testing was done.
Anyway, yes, at the end of the day this cpu problems should be solved on the hardware level, but do you see Intel shipping free cpu's to billions of users? The kernel patches being released are to try to fix the existing ones and those patches, you would have missed by not allowing level 5 updates.

But, hey... Everyone is free to have his/her own opinion, mine just happens to be different than yours. I always have two kernels installed at any time and if the updated one is buggy, I have always been able to boot the second one. Also, and some people here would disagree, but... on my second machine I run a rolling distro (Void linux) and that never broke either. But, also there I tend to have two kernels at any given time. Sometimes, dependencies could be missing, but it has never been worst than re-running the update a few hours later. In my mind, Mint is a good distro, although it tends to ship with too much software installed by default. That's all!

Oh! Another thing... You could hardly have missed what Mint itself is posting on their web site:
"Linux Kernel
Please use the Update Manager to upgrade your Linux kernel.
The following versions were patched:

    3.13 series (Linux Mint 17 LTS): patched in 3.13.0-139
    3.16 series (LMDE): patched in 3.16.51-3+deb8u1
    4.4 series (Linux Mint 17 HWE and Linux Mint 18 LTS): patched in 4.4.0-108
    4.13 series (Linux Mint 18 HWE): patched in 4.13.0-25
Note: The current HWE series in Linux Mint 18 moved from 4.10 to 4.13.

Some users reported issues with early kernel updates (4.4.0-108 issues in particular were fixed since in 4.4.0-109). We strongly recommend you use Timeshift to create a system snapshot before applying the updates. Timeshift is installed by default in Linux Mint 18.3 and available in the repositories for all Linux Mint 17.x and 18.x releases."


You can read the full text here, https://linuxmint.com/
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: zebedeeboss on January 11, 2018, 06:20:37 am

HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131
Point proven....

I have been running the updates as per Peppermint recommendations since June 2015 and can say I have NEVER had a problem.

One post does not tell the whole picture and does not prove any point other than that particular user had a problem.

Regards Zeb...

ps that's the beauty of Linux - you can choose how to run your own system.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: Slim.Fatz on January 11, 2018, 08:11:44 am
I believe that some of you are mixing up 2 things here.  What happens right now with the modern CPU's wasn't known 22 years ago and in my opinion, this has also nothing to do with the update/upgrade policy of Mint.
Hmm, I don't think anyone said that this had anything to do with the update/upgrade policy of Mint.  ::)

The issue right now is more a hardware issue which  cannot be fixed by any software update/upgrade but can only be fixed by designing CPU's which doesn't have this fault on-board.
If that is the case, why are the kernel developers for GNU-Linux, Micro$oft and Apple all working on kernel updates and patches to solve this problem? Are they all idiots and have nothing better to do??  :-\

You all are hammering on the Meltdown/Spectre issue like it has really really bad influence on any update policy of any distro. Wrong assumption!
I think that you are reading the comments incorrectly. No one has claimed that the Meltdown/Spectre issue influences update policies. What is being said is that some update policies are inadequate to deal with certain security-related problems such as we see happening with the Meltdown/Spectre issue.

And again, don't mix up 2 different things..... Today's issue with modern CPU's has nothing to do with Mint's or Ubuntu's update policy......
I see ... so updating or not  to a newer kernel version, patched to reduce (and eventually stop) the security threats posed has nothing to do with the modern CPUs (or the old ones, for that matter)? Then with what exactly does it have to do? You're speaking nonsense here.  :P


HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131 (https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131)
Point proven....
That one problem, as pin and zebedeeboss have pointed out, does not prove your point in any fashion. If it did, then just one post about a successful kernel update would -- according to your logic, prove exactly the opposite ... :-X

Something tells me that you would be better served by just sticking to using Mint and let the rest of us unfortunate mortals face our doom with PeppermintOS.

Regards,

-- Slim
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 11, 2018, 08:54:05 am
To me this is simple

a) Sure kernel updates can introduce problems for a VERY VERY VERY limited few, but they are pretty much always easily backed out of because thee previous kernel ins't removed.

b) Kernel updates are MUCH more likely to solve problems than introduce them

c) Kernel updates often fix/mitigate security issues (as the latest round of kernel updates are doing with meltdown/spectre).
(it's pointless Crazy Tux saying kernel updates haven't a role here, yes it's a hardware problem, but it's being mitigated via software .. in fact currently it can ONLY be mitigated by a patched kernel and other software, and microcode update .. things that may be held back by Mints default update policy).

d) Both Peppermint AND Mint rely on Ubuntu's upstream repositories, not following their update policy creates a situation where Mint slowly but steadily diverges from a setup that's heavily tested upstream (usually mitigated by their own repo settings and update-manager) .. which is BOUND to introduce issues such as the one alynur is having when "apt-get" is used in place of their update-manager, or where say the repo pinnings/priorities somehow get screwed.

IMHO Mint's update policy makes ZERO sense unless they have FULL control of their repositories, and slowly breaks both itself and peoples systems whilst at the same time *possibly* introducing security issues. It also introduces more opportunity for user activity to cause breakage (where say they manually install something that requires something that was held back by mint-update as a dependency .. that dependency will now get installed making their system diverge both from Ubuntu AND Mint, and possibly less stable than either).

We are Ubuntu based (so are Mint), it makes sense we follow the Ubuntu update policy minimising divergence from upstream testing.

And please stop telling people they're making incorrect assumptions when you have no idea what lead to their assumptions or whether they're correct FOR THEM.

When choosing to use mint-update we had 2 options:-

i) Completely strip out the "Levels" functionality (because disabling level 4 and 5 doesn't fit OUR or upstream policy)

ii) Leave the "Levels" functionality intact, but change the defaults to accept ALL update levels in line with OUR and upstream policy.

We chose the latter because it makes the most sense for most people, but left the CHOICE for users who understood the risks of disabling levels and how to dig themselves out of potential holes.

To suggest Mints defaults are somehow "saner" without understanding the pitfalls, and whilst writing off potential security implications shows a complete lack of understanding of the topic and completely ignores what is probably the root of this topic in the first place.

Mint's defaults are only sane for Mint, and then only if you stick 100% to their repos .. and even then can be problematic. And they hold back things that may actually SOLVE problems all in the name of "stability" which the very existence of this topic (and many many others) calls into question.

Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 11, 2018, 10:23:37 am
HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131
Point proven....

Actually, that would have happened on Linux Mint too, had they done what the Mint team said to do, which is to update you kernel.

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3496

Kernel updates are level 5 and there's the Mint team saying to use the Update Manager to update the kernel.  So, no point proven.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: alynur on January 11, 2018, 12:47:02 pm
hi folks...my main driver IS Linux Mint...started with 18.0 cinnamon and have used each rendition up to the present 18.3 cinnamon...i havent had any of the problems that get reported on the LM forum...why?...i do not use questionable foriegn PPAs...i do not uses multiple desktops...i do not try to put square windows pegs into round linux holes like wine or emulators and the list goes on...likewise i just do not have any problems with my second main computer here at home which is peppermint 8 now updated to 8.5 respin...again NO problems...if you cant guess i believe the reason why is i put the K.I.S.S. on any flavour i use...it simply means Keep It Simple Stupid...like anything else in life, the more we muck things up the more that can go wrong...i run 4 levels in mint for updates as well as peppermint...i keep the 5th level on view so i can see what the level 5 update may be and decide to install them only on a case by case basis...it it happens to be marked "beta" like 4 grubs ive seen i will not download...grub is way too necessary if i have to retreat over a burning bridge (ie) bad kernel update, so i will not use beta anything just incase...i have seen way to much mucking about with problems that some people especially newbies are having and hear them saying its junk...what is necessary is to improve your IT skills BEFORE you start mucking about borking your system...i have been working computers of one sort or another for 45 yrs (now, yep thats right, since the early 70s screwing around with them on my ham radio rigs) and have almost always seen that the main problems people have are either PEBCAK or 1D 10 -T difficulties by newbies also compounding the felony of problems by not using the update manager for their regular updates or kernel updates and security updates from their distros own repositories...DAMIEN

Hi Damien1307, I wish I knew why this Mint is acting the way it is, I've barely been able to get beyond performing the first update, which includes the kernel fixer update, and an install of my DATA partition with symlinks, all in line with published tutorials. Incidentally, I chose the softest of the update choices, so there is no way someone can say I'm borking the system. I didn't even get a chance to install ANY packages from the Software Manager. Like I said, I wish I knew what was going on. One thing is for sure, I have NO problems installing UBUNTU distros, they all work right otb. 
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 11, 2018, 01:10:23 pm
alynur .. will it boot the earlier kernel ?
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 11, 2018, 01:11:03 pm
Yeah, sudo apt-get upgrade does the same thing the Update Manager does, it holds back kernel and other "level 5" upgrades.  You have to run "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" to install everything.  So, the Update Manager probably would have borked the system too.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 11, 2018, 01:12:36 pm
From what I'm reading some systems seriously don't like these patched kernels, that's why I'm wondering if it'll still boot the stock kernel.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 11, 2018, 01:16:43 pm
From what I'm reading some systems seriously don't like these patched kernels, that's why I'm wondering if it'll still boot the stock kernel.

Yeah, I've read that too.  But, that's to be expected when you have a major roll out like this to fix something major.  There's no way they could have tested it on every single system config out there.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 11, 2018, 01:18:27 pm
Yup :)
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: DAMIEN1307 on January 11, 2018, 01:27:17 pm
hi alynur...i would absolutely want to be of help here for you...personally i use both mint and peppermint...they are both the most outstanding systems with linux distros but and i say but again...it really depends on what computer they are on as to which will run the best for you and your system...can you give me some specs of your system and then i might be able to help you out better here...im willing as well as anyone else here on the forum and im guessing you might have tried for help on LM forum but and i admit there are some there that are not exactly helpful...here in peppermint they are moreso helpful but again i need to know more about the system internals...if you could copy this... inxi -F ...and paste that into the terminal and then post it here, then i might be able to discern if linux mint is even right for you verses maybe using peppermint...both are outstanding its just is what is right for you and your computer...DAMIEN
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: alynur on January 11, 2018, 02:01:15 pm
Hi Damien, sure,

Code: [Select]
albert@albert-desktop ~ $ inxi -Fz
System:    Host: albert-desktop Kernel: 4.13.0-26-generic x86_64 (64 bit)
           Desktop: N/A Distro: Peppermint Eight
Machine:   Mobo: ASRock model: AM1B-M
           Bios: American Megatrends v: P1.50 date: 04/29/2015
CPU:       Quad core AMD Athlon 5370 APU with Radeon R3 (-MCP-) cache: 8192 KB
           clock speeds: max: 2200 MHz 1: 800 MHz 2: 1500 MHz 3: 2200 MHz 4: 800 MHz
Graphics:  Card: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Cedar [Radeon HD 5000/6000/7350/8350 Series]
           Display Server: X.Org 1.19.3 drivers: ati,radeon (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1024x768@75.03hz, 1024x768@75.03hz
           GLX Renderer: Gallium 0.4 on AMD CEDAR (DRM 2.50.0 / 4.13.0-26-generic, LLVM 4.0.0)
           GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 17.0.2
Audio:     Card-1 Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] FCH Azalia Controller
           driver: snd_hda_intel
           Card-2 Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Cedar HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 5400/6300 Series]
           driver: snd_hda_intel
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.13.0-26-generic
Network:   Card: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller
           driver: r8169
           IF: enp2s0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 500.1GB (14.3% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD5000AUDX size: 500.1GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 20G used: 11G (60%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
           ID-2: swap-1 size: 8.65GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda5
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 23.0C mobo: N/A gpu: 55.5
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 201 Uptime: 2:47 Memory: 2186.5/7914.8MB
           Client: Shell (bash) inxi: 2.2.35
albert@albert-desktop ~ $

I really don't think it's a hardware problem, I must admit, when I was first looking to get away from windows, my first thought was that of Linux Mint, but after reading articles about what might be the best, and at that time I had a system with much less attributes, and came across Peppermint 6. I am so glad I did. If Mint forums gave the attention and detail that these guys here do, they may have something much better.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: christianvl on January 11, 2018, 02:11:16 pm
I've benn using Linux for a very long time now. Started way back with Conectiva Guarani 3.0 (a Brazilian distro). Conectiva then went with Mandrake and formed Mandriva (that I've used too for a long time). I was also a heavy Xubuntu and Ubuntu user. As I've also used Fedora and Opensuse. I've even had PCBSD for a while.

It was only a few years back that I've decided to stick with Ubuntu LTS (call me crazy, but I was an Unity happy user). Then I've went to Mint (Cinnamon and KDE), and finally landed in Peppermint, the best distro for me and my needs.

I've never had a single problem updating any of all the distros I've used. I've had problems upgrading (but that was also a while ago). Linux Mint updated (and I've alwasy updated everything - didn't like their default settings) and upgraded beutifully.

I don't think Mint is junk, nor is most of the other distros out there. But if I have to choose one, I'm more inclined to go to something that's Ubuntu LTS based, because it works best with my hardware and its easier to get support.  If in doubt, I'd go for mainstrem distros first, check hardware support, then what I'll be using the distro for.

If Mint is good or bad it may depend on your hardware and how you like to use your computer. And surely, where you ask that question. I try to be fair. I think they do an amazing job, but Peppermint suits me much better.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 11, 2018, 04:17:44 pm
There’s really no good or bad distros in Linux, just ones that suit your needs and ones that don’t.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 11, 2018, 05:13:55 pm
So who's needs does Hannah Montana Linux and Justin Bieber Linux fulfill ?
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: DAMIEN1307 on January 11, 2018, 06:21:53 pm
hi alynur...your specifications show that you could use either linux mint or peppermint...based on just talking to you once on this forum, i am heavily asking you to adopt the peppermint linux 8.5 respin and becoming a member of the peppermint family here...what can i, or any of the other members here do to help you?
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 11, 2018, 06:35:18 pm
So who's needs does Hannah Montana Linux and Justin Bieber Linux fulfill ?

Beliebers and whatever you call Hannah Montana Linux fans?  I dunno.  Not my thing, but somebody somewhere was going ape**** over it.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 11, 2018, 06:39:57 pm
Nah not accept'n that, there are some things that simply shouldn't be things :D

And I'm not convinced there's anyone anywhere that actually wants them to be things.
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 11, 2018, 07:14:59 pm
And I'm not convinced there's anyone anywhere that actually wants them to be things.

And yet someone made them.  So, there was at least one person....
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: alynur on January 11, 2018, 07:32:34 pm
hi alynur...your specifications show that you could use either linux mint or peppermint...based on just talking to you once on this forum, i am heavily asking you to adopt the peppermint linux 8.5 respin and becoming a member of the peppermint family here...what can i, or any of the other members here do to help you?

Hi Damien1307, Peppermint is my home, has been for the last few years. I occasionally find something that won't run in peppermint, like Anbox, and so I have other distros installed on my machine. I found that Zorin just crashes and disappears after it's first update. I had Mint 17.2 that lasted for a short while but it also wouldn't reboot and so instead of reinstalling it, I thought I would check out Mint 18.3. This is turning out to be more trouble than it's worth so I'll forget about it, probably clean the partition and look for something else to put in there. I have plenty of time to play around with these things but I'm not exactly computer proficient. In my opinion, a distribution should be able to be used by any one who can understand the installation instructions. As wide spread as this non booting has become, Mint should be all over it to figure out what needs to be done to prevent this situation from emerging. If any one were to ask me if Linux Mint was any good, by my experiences with it I would have to say it's junk. It's kind of like the wrench made in India I bought at Harbor Freight that broke the first time I used it, a 17mm. In my opinion, it's junk and I wouldn't recommend Indian made wrenches to anyone. Do you get my drift? At the end of the day, it's no biggie, I've got Peppermint.  ;D
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: tetricky on January 11, 2018, 07:50:35 pm
So who's needs does Hannah Montana Linux and Justin Bieber Linux fulfill ?

I don't know what they are, or what they might be for, but someone should probably put a wrecking ball through them. On a forum that I run we have a thread which is "Things that I know are Sh*t without having to see them".  I suspect these might be candidates.

Perhaps BieberOS is for the hard of hearing?
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 11, 2018, 07:54:59 pm
On a forum that I run we have a thread which is "Things that I know are Sh*t without having to see them".  I suspect these might be candidates.

LOL :)) .. you are of course right :D
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: scifidude79 on January 11, 2018, 08:01:18 pm
I'm not going to lie, the only place I've even heard of these two distributions is on this forum.  From PCNetSpec.  ??? You do the math.  :P
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: alynur on January 12, 2018, 09:11:33 am
I'm not going to lie, the only place I've even heard of these two distributions is on this forum.  From PCNetSpec.  ??? You do the math.  :P

 ;D
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: pin on January 12, 2018, 09:27:42 am
Maybe I should give it a go... http://hannahmontana.sourceforge.net/


Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk

Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: Ly on January 12, 2018, 10:09:08 am
So who's needs does Hannah Montana Linux and Justin Bieber Linux fulfill ?
Biebian...  :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: PCNetSpec on January 12, 2018, 01:15:28 pm
I'm not going to lie, the only place I've even heard of these two distributions is on this forum.  From PCNetSpec.  ??? You do the math.  :P

LOL :-[

[EDIT]

BTW, "maths" :P
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: alynur on January 15, 2018, 10:16:24 am
I have an update for all you guys that didn't like the insinuation that Mint was junk. It's not, it's Linux, how could it be?
After spending the last few days going back and forth, trying different fixes being advised on the Mint forum, we finally figured out a way to make it work. Ended up having to change the fstab entry to read
Code: [Select]
# User created DATA partition, mounted at /mnt/DATA
UUID=585c3e2f-c6be-4802-885d-eead48242766  /mnt/DATA     ext4      defaults,noatime,noauto   0   2

The entry the Mint guys suggested had an extra "user,exec" in there that didn't work and I just thought to try it without those and it all works. BUT a new user to Linux coming over from windows probably wouldn't have a clue at how to fix this problem. I just learned how to deal with emergency mode. But it was fixable, it does work, so it's not junk.  : :D
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: Slim.Fatz on January 15, 2018, 10:41:33 am
Hi alynur,

Glad to see that you got it fixed and running!!  8)

Regards,

-- Slim
Title: Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
Post by: alynur on January 30, 2018, 11:37:13 am
Hi guys, I have another update to inform you of. I also had Ubunto 17.04 installed in a partition, all set up with symlinks to the DATA partition and it had been working fine. Well, Ubuntu came out with an update to 17.10 and I thought "why not?". So after completing the update and rebooting to check things out, I got put into emergency mode. So figuring that the fstab file was the culprit, i changed it to read the same as I had it in Mint and it would boot up okay but the DATA partition wouldn't mount automatically. So I took out the noauto part and tried it again and now it works just fine. So it's still a big mystery to me why one set up works fine in one distro and not in another. Just keep this in mnd if you ever run across a similar problem.  :)