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General => GNU/Linux Discussion => Topic started by: perknh on July 15, 2017, 11:20:15 pm

Title: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 15, 2017, 11:20:15 pm
Why Linux Mint Won

By Matt Hartley (http://www.datamation.com/author/Matt-Hartley-3080.html) for Datamation (http://www.datamation.com/about/)

Quote
With Ubuntu refocusing on the cloud/server/IoT space with desktop taking a backseat, I think we'll see Mint continuing to grab new users and potentially surpass Ubuntu in the coming years. And while I caution people not to take sites like Distro Watch too seriously, as the download numbers aren't a good way to process popularity, it does provide a lose indicator that Mint isn't going away anytime soon. --Matt Hartley

http://www.datamation.com/open-source/why-linux-mint-won.html (http://www.datamation.com/open-source/why-linux-mint-won.html)


Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: josephd on July 16, 2017, 01:56:30 am
I've been a fan of Matt's work since his Jupiter Broadcasting days. So I'm biased when I say he was spot on here.

Not to hate on Canonical, but after so many shuttered projects between 2011 and today it's not a surprise that people are skeptical when they start something new.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: zebedeeboss on July 16, 2017, 02:57:39 am
Distrowatch today

2878   :  Linux Mint ( Cinnamon/xfce/KDE/LMDE)
3477   :  Total Ubuntu

made up of
1497:  Ubuntu
473   :  Lubuntu
409   :  Ubuntu Mate
312   :  Ubuntu Budgie
311   :  Xubuntu
242   :  Kubuntu
233   :  Ubuntu Gnome

I like Mint - it works well but...  Lets have a fair playing field eh  :D

Matt is right the Distrowatch figures are very very lose...

Regards Zeb...
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 16, 2017, 06:53:16 am
What Zeb said .. and I'll add that most new users aren't even aware of Distrowatch so just use Google to help make their choice, and you'll find thousands of pages about Ubuntu for every one about Mint.

IMHO Mint, good as it is, is still WAY WAY WAY smaller than Ubuntu .. it's "won" nothing (and I doubt if "winning" is even a consideration of Clem's).

In fact if the amount of people bitching about an OS (and writing articles declaring it as having somehow "lost") is any function of popularity, Ubuntu is STILL third to Windows and OS X

Remember that was an article as much about Ubuntu as it was about Mint .. if he's so secure about Mints position he wouldn't have felt the need to mention Ubuntu at all, it simply wouldn't have crossed his mind.

Mint won't have "won" whilst people (and in particular the tech press) are still finding it necessary to compare it to Ubuntu (and Ubuntu's position).

It would have been a much better article (certainly for Mint) if he'd just left Ubuntu out of it .. but then it wouldn't garner as many clicks now would it ? ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 16, 2017, 07:01:20 am
Let me put the Distrowatch figures into some kind of context...

If you add up ALL the figures for ALL distros on DW, they don't add up to the amount of weekly visits to our main website .. does that mean we're more popular than all the others combined ?

Of course it doesn't .. it's ONLY representative(ish) of DW visitors .. even DW say they're just a bit of fun and don't represent much.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 16, 2017, 07:26:14 am
I happen to agree with Hartley's assessment here too.  Although I was never a huge fan of Mint, I'm beginning to change my feelings about Mint now.  The reason for this is because I know what users are getting when they go to Mint, but, with Ubuntu, I never know what users will be getting any longer.  Ubuntu is now ditching its emphasis from the desktop and placing its focus on the Cloud and the IoT instead.  What's next? :-\

Perhaps a better title for that article would be Why Linux Mint is Winning.  Yes, I still see Ubuntu as strong but I also see it as faltering.  Increasingly, I get the feeling that Ubuntu is becoming less and less relevant --at least for the DE.  In a nutshell, I'm losing confidence in Ubuntu.:(
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 16, 2017, 08:06:24 am
Not quite sure what you're saying here perknh .. that Mint has won something ? (if there's even anything to 'win')

Sadly the title of the article told me it was clickbait from the outset :( .. it carries some valid points, but for me they're lost in the unnecessary sensationalism.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 16, 2017, 10:12:03 am
Fun fact:  I was running Mint when I found Peppermint.  8)

Yep, Mint is a good distro.  While DW is  a good website, it's obviously not the whole story.  Mint has been getting users from Ubuntu since the switch to Unity, though some of those users have likely also gone to Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc., or even other distributions entirely.  But, by focusing on the desktop and making projects that people like, such as Cinnamon and MATE, Mint has been gaining in popularity and will probably continue to do so.  How high will they go?  It's hard to say.  But, there's no winners or losers here.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: pin on July 16, 2017, 11:10:00 am
I don't see a "distro war" as a way forward.
If a person leaves windows or ios to get into linux, that's a win. The more people moving over the better.
I used Mint for a few weeks and found Peppermint, so the important step it's the move itself.

Skickat frn min SM-G900F via Tapatalk
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: jlschwartz on July 16, 2017, 11:20:21 am
I recently looked at the latest version of Mint and found it a bit difficult to set up.   For example it took several steps and web searches to set up Dropbox which is very easy to set up on a Ubuntu distro and Peppermint.  Had some problems with setting up themes and icons as well.  Maybe it's me, but for a number one distro to have these types of problems I was surprised.  :-\

Jeff
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: josephd on July 16, 2017, 12:53:21 pm
As long as any distro is based on another there will always be a comparison.

Also DIstrowatch numbers are page views within their own website. I don't know about you guys but I haven't visited the DW page for Peppermint in years, so my interest wouldn't be counted.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 16, 2017, 02:20:18 pm
Also DIstrowatch numbers are page views within their own website. I don't know about you guys but I haven't visited the DW page for Peppermint in years, so my interest wouldn't be counted.

Yep, that is so true.  I know before DW that a release is coming, so why go there?  ;)

Also, the fact that you click on the page for a distro doesn't mean you download it.  Every distro that's featured on the main page immediately gets more attention, because it's right there.  DistroWatch Weekly also gives distros a shot in the arm, with reviews or even just mentioning a distro.  DistroWatch actually has no way to track downloads unless people use the direct links in the release announcements, as the links on the distro pages just go to the site for the distro.

For example, Mageia is currently top center of the main page.  I just clicked on it and may even visit their site.  (I've used Mageia in the past)  But, that doesn't mean I'm going to download it and, even if I do, it doesn't mean I'm going to run it after checking out the live session.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 16, 2017, 03:56:49 pm
Personally I see no "war for newbies" .. just two disto's doing their own thing

But for those that see one, and think Mint has won this non existent war, think about this...

Ubuntu - Mint = Ubuntu

Mint - Ubuntu = what ? .. Mint Debian ? (would that still stay on top with no PPA's, Ubuntu polish, and documentation ?)

Mint are simply not big enough at the moment maintain all the packages that make up Mint/Ubuntu which is why they rely on the upstream package maintenance, nor do they have the infrastructure to host and build all the packages (as well as providing PPA hosting) such as launchpad.
(a larger problem is currently without some seed change in the way Linux is distributed and paid for there's no way to foresee them ever becoming big enough .. I gather even Canonical/Ubuntu loose money doing this, luckily they have a stupidly rich benefactor)

Mint IMHO are also getting a bit lost themselves lately .. they championed things like the DE independent Xapps when everyone else seemed to be integrating all their stuff inextricably from their DE, but lately Mint seem to be going down the same path, for example the new mintupdate is useless outside Mint, near-forcing you to accept their update "levels", odd repo structure, and a ton of their other backend stuff. More and more of their software is becoming very difficult (or impossible) to extricate from Cinnamon.

The only "war" I personally see is the shift from the UNIX philosophy of "do one thing and do it well" modularity, and more towards DE specific integration .. sadly the UNIX philosophy of shared single task (but chain-able) code and application modularity is loosing, with Mints Cinnamon as guilty of this as Ubuntus Unity was.

If Ubuntu disappeared tomorrow it would be a disaster for MANY distros that rely on not only their upstream package maintenance, but FREE services such as launchpad, and that includes Mint. Conversely if Mint disappeared tomorrow the only way Ubuntu would notice is by their downloads going up.

Tell me now who's leading who ? .. and who does more for the Linux community (including newbies) as a whole ?

Mint is a terrific distro, but it's "won" nothing .. nor would they want to, or even see it in those terms .. the beauty of the Linux ecosystem is we all need each other and work best when we compliment each other through code, applications, and resources rising to the top and being shared, forked, and reused .. THERE IS NO WAR even though as clickbait the tech press would have you believe differently.

Mint are free to use Ubuntu resources/code/apps/etc. .. Ubuntu are free to use Mints (or Fedoras, or Gnomes, or....) .. when you use one you compliment ALL, don't listen to anyone that attempts to promote division with terms like "distro wars" then we're ALL "winners" ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: AndyInMokum on July 16, 2017, 07:30:24 pm
Exactly my sentiments too  ;).
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 17, 2017, 12:07:26 pm
One thing that irks me about Mint is *their* versions of software that's available in the Ubuntu repositories.  Mint has their own repos for a few things like Mintupdate and other exclusives, but they also have some redundant software in there.  One example is Steam.

Last time I ran Mint (Mint 18) installing steam required installing a package called steam-launcher, or something like that.  It's their version of the Steam software, presumably something they compiled themselves.  However, it ran like crap on my system, which is set up for gaming.  I don't remember what the issues were, I just know it didn't work right.  Meanwhile, Ubuntu and other distros based on it use a package in the main repositories called steam:1386.  I've never had any issue with that package, it run smooth as glass, especially on Peppermint.  So, as long as Mint is making boneheaded decisions like fixing stuff that's not broken, I won't run them.  If Peppermint disappeared tomorrow, I'd probably either go back to Ubuntu or one of the official flavors like Xubuntu.  I wouldn't go back to Mint because of some of the things they do.

(Also, Mint Debian, or LMDE was dreadful)

I think Ubuntu would be the clear winner in any war, if there was one.  Think about how many distributions are based on Ubuntu, more than any other OS on the planet.  Why?  Because Canonical does a fantastic job.  They pretty much came onto the scene and stole Debian's thunder almost immediately.  So, that's saying a lot.  Mint is a good project but, as Mark said, without Ubuntu, they'd be nowhere.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 17, 2017, 03:08:44 pm
Mint is a good project but, as Mark said, without Ubuntu, they'd be nowhere.

That is so true.  I do wish Ubuntu would keep more of a focus on the desktop.  Hopefully Ubuntu's resources will help GNOME 3 develop even further along in a few years.  Still, it's hard to imagine Ubuntu's GNOME DE ever having the same success that Mint's Cinnamon DE has had for itself. 

On the other hand I still need to keep in mind that this isn't the first time Ubuntu has reinvented itself.  Seven years ago, well before I started using GNU/Linux, Ubuntu's default DE was GNOME --albeit GNOME 2.  Also Mark Shuttleworth has promised Ubuntu, or Canonical, will maintain an ongoing commitment to the DE. 

Quote
Id like to emphasise our ongoing passion for, investment in, and commitment to, the Ubuntu desktop that millions rely on. We will continue to produce the most usable open source desktop in the world, to maintain the existing LTS releases, to work with our commercial partners to distribute that desktop, to support our corporate customers who rely on it, and to delight the millions of IoT and cloud developers who innovate on top of it. --Mark Shuttleworth (https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/).

It should be interesting to see what unfolds. ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: The PoorGuy on July 20, 2017, 10:13:05 pm
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Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: josephd on July 20, 2017, 11:11:39 pm
If and when Canonical is sold or goes public I suspect the Ubuntu project would probably spin off to a Community only project. I'd be okay with that.

If not, no big deal others will quickly fill the void.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 20, 2017, 11:22:32 pm
Yeah, probably something along the lines of what happened with Mandriva.  Former employees startes Mageia, which is a separate but similar distribution.  Meanwhile, once Mandriva shut down for good, another group carried it on as an open source project, OpenMandriva.  So, Mandriva lives on as both in name and in name on separate operating systems.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 21, 2017, 02:24:42 pm
You're all bonkerz :)

Ubuntu is as relevant as ever .. if Ubuntu dries up, three quarters of other distros do too .. you can suggest they'll rebase and carry on until you're blue in the face, but

a) most won't because they don't have the infrastructure to host their own repos.
and
b) PPA's would disappear instantly.
and
c) NO community effort would have the money to support that infrastructure (including Mint).

There is only one other distro (maybe 2 if you count SUSE)  that has the money to supply infrastructure that supports other distros, and they aren't interested.
(hell even Debian couldn't, and don't)

Whether or not Ubuntu concentrates on the desktop, they remain THE MOST RELEVANT Linux "community" supporter out there.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 21, 2017, 05:01:42 pm
You're all bonkerz :)

Yes!!! ;D

There is only one other distro (maybe 2 if you count SUSE)  that has the money to supply infrastructure that supports other distros, and they aren't interested.
(hell even Debian couldn't, and don't)

Whether or not Ubuntu concentrates on the desktop, they remain THE MOST RELEVANT Linux "community" supporter out there.

The other distro would be Fedora, isn't it?  But it's all beta stuff, and one year of support wouldn't cut it for most people.  That brings us full circle back to Ubuntu, doesn't it?  But GNOME 3 as a default DE?  I still believe that's a tough sell.  What do they say?  "Cinnamon DE is what GNOME 3 was supposed to be" --or something like that.

Quote
Cinnamon is a fork of the GNOME 3 desktop and appears to be intended as the GNOME desktop that never was. Its development seems to be the logical improvements that the Cinnamon developers thought were needed to improve and extend GNOME while retaining its unique and highly appreciated personality. --David Both (https://opensource.com/article/17/1/cinnamon-desktop-environment)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 21, 2017, 06:06:45 pm
Quote
The other distro would be Fedora, isn't it?

Sort of: I was thinking RedHat.

Quote
What do they say?  "Cinnamon DE is what GNOME 3 was supposed to be"

Tell that to the people experiencing major graphics lag ;)

I've wondered if this has anything to do with muffin, their fork of the mutter window manager .. but good luck Googling "Mint Muffin" :))
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: The PoorGuy on July 21, 2017, 06:17:11 pm
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Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: The PoorGuy on July 21, 2017, 06:22:02 pm
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Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 21, 2017, 06:46:33 pm
I meant "even Debian couldn't, and don't" afford to provide their spinoffs with free use of infrastructure like launchpad.

Debian spinoffs can't diverge as much from upstream (and easily provide updates to their own packages) unless they can afford to host and maintain their own repo .. Ubuntu spinoffs have the advantage that Ubuntu are willing to do the hosting for you (along with build resources)  via launchpad, they do this freely and without asking for anything in return, THIS is the real reason Ubuntu pulled Linux out of the 90's with everyone else enjoying the ride .. and why they should be afforded MASSIVE RESPECT.

And YES, even Debian benefited from a huge flow upstream from Ubuntu, and the interest in Linux Ubuntu generated.

Do you remember the Linux world pre-Ubuntu ? .. would you like to go back there ? .. to a RedHat/SUSE 'corporate Linux' dominated world ?

It was Ubuntu that put the "pep" into "desktop Linux", and even if they loose interest in the "desktop" it's still them that are enabling nearly everyone else.
(and BTW I'm not actually seeing this "lack of interest" I keep hearing others talk of :-\)

It's no secret that I've been a vocal critic of some of the decisions Ubuntu have made in the last few years .. but they deserve our ongoing respect for all they've done and continue to do (freely) for the Linux world, which without them would likely be stuck in the corporate world (probably wholly driven by Intel) today.

I'll criticise some of their decisions .. I DO NOT criticise their commitment to the Linux world, if they had no interest why does Launchpad still exist (which helps so many others) ? .. what do they get out of it (besides being slagged off by everyone from the back of an ungrateful bandwagon) ?

If Ubuntu close shop, sure Linux will likely survive .. but EVERYTHING would change, and I seriously doubt for the better .. I'd MUCH rather have Ubuntu 'enabling' a diverse ecosystem of other distros (at their expense) than RedIntelHat's "let's own it" mentality, or maybe a return to Micro$USE.

I repeat .. No other distro has done as much, and continues to do as much for the desktop Linux community .. and even though I can (and often do) disagree with some of their decisions, I for one offer them my profound and deepest gratitude and respect .. not so much now FOR Ubuntu, but for BEING Ubuntu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)). ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 22, 2017, 10:01:12 am
You're all bonkerz :)

Ubuntu is as relevant as ever .. if Ubuntu dries up, three quarters of other distros do too .. you can suggest they'll rebase and carry on until you're blue in the face, but

a) most won't because they don't have the infrastructure to host their own repos.
and
b) PPA's would disappear instantly.
and
c) NO community effort would have the money to support that infrastructure (including Mint).

There is only one other distro (maybe 2 if you count SUSE)  that has the money to supply infrastructure that supports other distros, and they aren't interested.
(hell even Debian couldn't, and don't)

Whether or not Ubuntu concentrates on the desktop, they remain THE MOST RELEVANT Linux "community" supporter out there.

It was just a theoretical discussion, could Ubuntu survive without Canonical?  Not that anyone thinks Ubuntu/Canonical are realistically going anywhere, especially not with Dell laptops being sold with Ubuntu preinstalled.  Also, there are more Ubuntu-based systems being ran than any other desktop Linux.

I agree, nobody could keep Ubuntu going, but someone would surely try.  It would be a dark day, but one we won't likely see anytime in foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 22, 2017, 12:14:33 pm
Sorry it just irks me when people hate on Ubuntu in an unqualified manner just for being Ubuntu, and because it's the 'popular' thing to do .. by all means slag off their decisions such as Unity, but they should be respected as an entity for everything they've done (and still do) for 'Desktop' Linux.

I'm personally hoping the shift to GS3 (which BTW is another decision I don't quite "get") is them getting back to their roots and pushing development from the bottom up.

The reason I say I don't "get it" though is if the intention is to get back to working closely with Gnome, Gnome have shown recently that they themselves don't seem that interested in bottom up feedback .. in fact they're now worse than Ubuntu at "sod you were doing our own thing and couldn't care less about modularity"

Take panel applets for example: you could hate Unity, but at least indicator applets tended to be portable to other panels (via a simple plugin) .. Gnome (along it must be said with Cinnamon/Pantheon/Deepin, and to a lesser degree MATE and Budgie) are going off on a total integration with ZERO interoperability kick .. personally I see this as the greatest threat to desktop Linux.

It seems to me that the same people who slag off systemd for feature/task creep are the ones that then go on to praise these DE's which are doing the same thing .. ie. they're following someone else's (usually the tech press who're only after clicks) lead without fully understanding what they're bitching about.

What the **** is it with things like the Budgie Menu, Brisk Menu, and yes even whiskermenu ? .. what ever happened to having standalone menu's that could be used in any DE/Panel such as Cardapio and early versions of the Slab menu ::)
(hell if it's necessary to have it as a plugin why not write the menu as a standalone app, then write or allow simple panel plugins for all panels that simply fire it up .. why code it to a specific panel nearly inextricably)

I'm fed up of hearing things like, "can I have the Brisk Menu/whiskermenu/Raven panel/etc. in LXDE/Unity/Gnome/etc.? : NO it's a MATE panel plugin. or DE specific" .. WHY for **** sake ? ???

Basically people are bitching about the wrong things: Linux is slowly loosing the UNIX philosophy of shared, reusable, and pluggable code, and moving towards a selfish integrated model that shares code in name only by making it impossible to use outside the target environment.

If people want to bitch at something for being 'anti-Linux' in some kind of philosophical sense .. stop bitching at Ubuntu, and start bitching at  integration, feature creep, and the loss of the UNIX philosophy of "do one thing and do it well" (or KISS for short) modularity .. ie. The things that made/makes Linux such a flexible OS with a diverse yet mutually supportive community.

Short version:- STOP THE IN-FIGHTING .. it's so damn un-Linux :)

Okay, I'll shut up now because I'm meandering and ranting somewhat :)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: pin on July 22, 2017, 01:51:30 pm


Skickat frn min SM-G900F via Tapatalk

Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: VinDSL on July 22, 2017, 03:39:27 pm
I'm personally hoping the shift to GS3 (which BTW is another decision I don't quite "get") is them getting back to their roots and pushing development from the bottom up.

Not trying to twist any arms here - just saying - if I had to settle on ONE and only one DE, it would be Ubu GS.

I'm surprised it took Canonical so many years to rid itself of Compiz (GS + Compiz = Unity).  Ubu has been built of top of GS since, what, 2011 ?!?!?

I can understand their reservations, in the beginning.  GS was gawd awful, in the old days.  Only thing it was good for was a dev tool to customize Unity, which was locked-down pretty tightly.  Unity was basically uncustomizable to the average Ubu user, unless they figured out how to haxor it with GS.

That impediment will be gone now.  GS is easily customizable, so if you don't like what you see, just roll your own.

Believe me on this - I've torn GS apart for years, and put it back together again.  It's a pleasure to work with, and a definite step forward for Ubuntu IMO.

Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but once you get used to using GS, you wouldn't believe how fast you can navigate it.  It's akin to touch-typing on a keyboard vs hunt n' peck, for want of another analogy.  One ends up flying through the GS panels without even thinking about it, given enough time and experience.

You'll see ...  8)

Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 22, 2017, 06:17:00 pm
Sorry it just irks me when people hate on Ubuntu in an unqualified manner just for being Ubuntu, and because it's the 'popular' thing to do .. by all means slag off their decisions such as Unity, but they should be respected as an entity for everything they've done (and still do) for 'Desktop' Linux.

I love Ubuntu.  It was the first Linux distro I really took to, though I later moved to Mint and then Peppermint.  I'd rather run Ubuntu or at least a distro based on it than any other Linux.  I just never took to Unity, I'm glad they're going back to GNOME.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 22, 2017, 06:40:28 pm
Sorry, none of my previous posts were aimed at any one individual, just me lamenting the spirit of mutual support I used to admire so much in the Linux/FOSS world, which seems to be being replaced with introversion, suspicion, and sniping.

Steve Ballmer would be grinning like a Cheshire cat.

[EDIT]

Maybe we need a full frontal attack from someone like Microsoft to pull together again ?
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 22, 2017, 09:05:08 pm
Linux is slowly loosing the UNIX philosophy of shared, reusable, and pluggable code, and moving towards a selfish integrated model that shares code in name only by making it impossible to use outside the target environment.

PCNetSpec, have you ever thought of writing an essay on that specific topic?  It's a subject of the utmost importance, and we hardly ever hear anything about it.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 23, 2017, 12:27:35 am
Sorry, none of my previous posts were aimed at any one individual, just me lamenting the spirit of mutual support I used to admire so much in the Linux/FOSS world, which seems to be being replaced with introversion, suspicion, and sniping.

Steve Ballmer would be grinning like a Cheshire cat.

[EDIT]

Maybe we need a full frontal attack from someone like Microsoft to pull together again ?

I, for one, didn't think you were attacking anyone.  I was just saying that I love Ubuntu and always will.  They lost me with Unity, but there were still their other official spins, Kububtu and Xubuntu, which are still Ubuntu, only with a different desktop.  If not for Peppermint, I'd probably be running one of those.  Mint was fun for a while, but I don't care as much for the way they do things.

If we need to bash someone, why not Apple?  Their crappy prices for so-so hardware and a "meh" OS have always been a sore spot with me.  Every time I've thought of buying one of their overpriced computers, I've had to choke back vomit.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 23, 2017, 06:44:53 am
Linux is slowly loosing the UNIX philosophy of shared, reusable, and pluggable code, and moving towards a selfish integrated model that shares code in name only by making it impossible to use outside the target environment.

PCNetSpec, have you ever thought of writing an essay on that specific topic?  It's a subject of the utmost importance, and we hardly ever hear anything about it.

Me no, too chicken .. sadly I can already vividly imagine how it would be twisted against 'Peppermint', and it would be because witch hunting for ulterior motives and inventing them where there are none seems to be the order of the day :(

To quote Private Frazer .. "We're all DOOMED" (in your best Scots accent) :))
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 23, 2017, 07:24:56 am
To quote Private Frazer .. "We're all DOOMED" (in your best Scots accent) :))

But, we are. :o

What's the difference between "a selfish integrated model that shares code in name only by making it impossible to use outside the target environment" and proprietary software other than, in practical terms, only being able to read the code?

.. sadly I can already vividly imagine how it would be twisted against 'Peppermint', and it would be because witch hunting for ulterior motives and inventing them where there are none seems to be the order of the day :(

Yeah, all of us are already subject to too many "alternative facts" as is.  You're probably wise in not writing that essay (Although I can't think of anyone better equipped to write that essay than you.)  The mission creep within Linux to which you are referring however does make RS sound saner and saner with every passing day.  This is an uphill battle for sure.  Little by little we're losing the GNU in Linux. :(
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 23, 2017, 07:54:08 am
I should probably have used the word 'difficult' rather than 'impossible'. It's still better than proprietary closed source because you can at least audit what's going on under the hood and take ideas from it (if not use it directly), but **specifically** designing software for ease of sharing and the common good seems to be disappearing fast :(

IMHO it was that sense of "common good" that drove Linux/FOSS to be such a great (and unassailable) development model .. so it's a real pity to watch it eroding before my very eyes :(

Sadly the term "versus" seems to have crept into the Linux world (possibly because a shared sense of external threat is no longer felt so keenly).

Arch Vs Ubuntu
Mir Vs Wayland
Gnome Vs KDE Vs LXDE Vs.....
.deb Vs .rpm
flatpack vs snap
OO.o Vs LO
my panel Vs your panel
Ad infinitum...
(even Mint Vs Ubuntu or kernel 4.8 Vs 4.11 .. both of which make ZERO non-contextual sense ::))

where the terms "diversity", "choice", and "shared common goals" used to reign supreme .. it seems to be driving a sense of tribal insularity instead of respect via cooperation.



And before someone points it out .. YES I've been guilty of using "Vs" on occasion too, to my shame :-[
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: scifidude79 on July 23, 2017, 10:07:55 am
I don't get why it has to be versus either.  I mean, they're all just different options.  Variety is what makes Linux so great, there's no reason to have a peeing contest on whose distro, DE or package management is better.  They're all good in their own way, and they all have their flaws.  It's up to individuals to decide which they prefer, but there's no competition.
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: VinDSL on July 24, 2017, 12:18:20 am
Heh!  Resistance is futile ...   ;D


(http://vindsl.com/images/VinDSL Screenshot from 2017-07-23 21-09-43.png)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 24, 2017, 08:24:19 am
Not trying to twist any arms here - just saying - if I had to settle on ONE and only one DE, it would be Ubu GS.

It is nice, VinDSL.  In fact, all these distributions and interfaces are nice.  I still think, however, that the users from Unity are going to want to see a little polish on GNOME --for instance, like adding Suspend to Shutdown instead of having to add Sleepy.  But, still, you can easily see that GNOME is a wonderful foundation on which to build, customise, or fork.   Clearly Unity is forked from GNOME, as is Cinnamon and Pantheon.  GNOME is impressive.

I'm glad we're having this conversation.  It's causing me to look at these various DEs anew. ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 24, 2017, 02:27:29 pm
There's sommat seriously amiss when Gnome is heavier than KDE don't you think John ???

and to make matters worse you then have to ADD plugins (and therefore more weight) to it to make it work properly .. which I seem to remember you using against me in a Firefox/Chrome "discussion" :P :)) ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: pin on July 24, 2017, 04:37:27 pm
Whats wrong with Xfce?
Gnome, KDE, Unity,... huge stuff

I'm more thinking in another direction... fluxbox, openbox, awesome...

The rest is just eye candy!

Skickat frn min SM-G900F via Tapatalk

Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 24, 2017, 06:00:27 pm
Whats wrong with Xfce?

Good point.  ;)  Xfce remains the most user-friendly desktop environment I've seen yet.  Right now I'm running Peppermint 8 alongside Mint Cinnamon Edition 18.2 after having experimented with GNOME.  Although both Peppermint and Linux Mint work just fine, I still find Peppermint easier to configure and easier to use than Mint.  Also both GNOME's and Mint Cinnamon Edition's keyring issue concerning password management within Chromium or Chrome browser has gotten old fast.  I get tired of dealing with that issue time and time again. ::)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 24, 2017, 06:56:22 pm
Whats wrong with Xfce?

Absolutely nothing .. or there won't be once it goes Gtk3 :)

I find it really odd that Xfce doesn't seem to get the development resources the others do (yet probably more distros use it than any other DE, surely there's a message it that) .. it would have been nice if Ubuntu had decided to put their resources behind the tiny Xfce development team instead of Gnome .. IMHO Xfce could easily be turned into the premier Linux DE with a resource injection. All it really needs is a better file manager based on Nautilus but not dumbed down (something like Nemo, or their own Nautilus fork), a shift to Gtk3 (already nearly completed), and then a little modernising of the theming/graphics.

IMHO Ubuntu chose the wrong DE again .. if they'd have championed Xfce development I think they'd have pleased a LOT more people .. and with their resources could probably have shaped the development more so than Gnome will allow them.

I even have a name suggestion for the 'next generation' Xfce - NeXfce .. okay maybe not, Xfce5 will do :))
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 24, 2017, 09:21:03 pm
I've been thinking... (yeah i know, but shut up it's too late I've already done it)...

Considering all the big players have an Xfce spin (and often one of their most popular spins)
Xubuntu
Mint Xfce
Manjaro Xfce
Arch (can have it)
Debian Xfce (which from what I read seems about the most popular DE on Debian)
Fedora Xfce
openSUSE Xfce
etc.

and IMHO the majority of derivative distros either default to Xfce or have a secondary spin with it....

If someone could figure out how to gather the data it wouldn't surprise me to discover Xfce is the most used DE out there without anybody actually realising it.

I mean, Cinnamon is basically Mint only .. sure you can have it elsewhere, but how many do ?
Unity .. well nuff said, just UboobnutU
Gnome 3 Shell (in it's default form) hasn't been that popular .. sure a few of the bigger distros default to it, but is it really that "used" (outside maybe the corporate world) ?
KDE .. again, nuff said .. those that use it love it but I can't name any MASSIVELY popular distros that use it (?)
LXDE .. fading fast, and nobody iseems impressed with LXQt so far
Budgie .. erm, Solus .. yeah there's Ubuntu Budgie, but do you know anyone that uses that ?
Pantheon .. erm, Elementary
Deepin .. Deepin
E17/18/19/Moksha .. basically, Bodhi
MATE .. Mint MATE and Ubuntu MATE (okay between them that's probably a fair count, but I still doubt it matches xfce which seems to be everywhere)
Well you get the picture :)

When all Xfce spins are added together, if it isn't the most used DE I'd bet it's right up there.

Maybe we should start some kind of drive to get people to donate to the Xfce team to help speed development ?



[EDIT]

Yes John, I realise a lot of those are just shells for Gnome 3 .. but I'm not talking about the underlying tech, I'm talking about the UI and primary apps/utils people interact with and "recognise" as a distinct DE. ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: VinDSL on July 24, 2017, 09:59:06 pm
Yes John, I realise a lot of those are just shells for Gnome 3 ..

Heh !  You will be assimilated...   ;D
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: perknh on July 24, 2017, 10:33:44 pm
Quote
Xfce is a lightweight desktop environment for UNIX-like operating systems. It aims to be fast and low on system resources, while still being visually appealing and user friendly.

Xfce embodies the traditional UNIX philosophy of modularity and re-usability. It consists of a number of components that provide the full functionality one can expect of a modern desktop environment. They are packaged separately and you can pick among the available packages to create the optimal personal working environment.

Another priority of Xfce is adherence to standards, specifically those defined at freedesktop.org.

Xfce can be installed on several UNIX platforms. It is known to compile on Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, Cygwin and MacOS X, on x86, PPC, Sparc, Alpha...

Source:  https://xfce.org/about (https://xfce.org/about)

This sounds like the way things ought to be! ;)
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: pin on July 25, 2017, 03:59:40 am
Good morning everyone...
That's kind of... further than the point I was trying to make

You've nailed it!

Xfce is, "most probably" the most functional DE and as PCNetSpec "shows", probably the most used as well. But, others do get the hype.

If Xfce woundn't be there anymore , I would most probably use fluxbox and not one of the heavy ones. Even though a lot of fluxbox documentation links available end up on a 404 error - document not found...

Fluxbox is simple, very configurable and can actually look really nice.

Skickat frn min SM-G900F via Tapatalk
Title: Re: Why Linux Mint Won
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 25, 2017, 06:36:21 am
Xfce (along with LXDE and the *box's) is also very modular .. it's quite easy to swap out components without breaking other bits.

THAT is what I admire so much about those DE's .. they more closely adhere to the UNIX philosophy than the newer DE's which IMO are becoming a bunch of untangleable dependencies (have the whole thing or not at all).

That is quite possibly why so many derivative distros choose them .. it's easier to 'make them your own', which I thought was the way Linux/FOSS development worked .. ie. make it easy for people to string things together in new and imaginative ways and everyone benefits when the cream of the ideas rise to the top. That's lost in the new 'holistic' DE's where only really the authors can implement new ideas because any small change requires a ton of other dependant changes, so the "idea pool" shrinks risking stagnation.



And for John - Yep, G3 as an underlying tech is very modular, pliable, and extensible, but (so far) the resulting DE's (or shells) tend not to be .. I have nothing against G3, but I do against GS/Cinnamon/Unity/Pantheon/etc.
(though Gnome ARE tending to make G3 more difficult to extend outside 'their' vision lately .. take client side decorations for example)