Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => GNU/Linux Gaming => Topic started by: Slim.Fatz on May 08, 2015, 04:03:37 am

Title: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: Slim.Fatz on May 08, 2015, 04:03:37 am
Hi,

A friend of mine, who has a PC running M$ Widows but without a Linux distro anywhere on it, asked me about installing Peppermint. One question that is important for him is whether he will be able to play his "Windows" games when running Peppermint. I know that without installing additional software (e.g. Wine) this is not possible.

Further discussion with him brought me quickly to my limits concerning Wine (about which I really know very little). He then surprised me by his knowledge of a Linux distro named PlayOnLinux, which seems to come with Wine already installed. His knowledge is, however, not much deeper than mine ...  :-X   I know nothing about PlayOnLinux, but understand Peppermint enough to help him get it installed, customized and running (and to use it to show him some of the many advantages of using Linux). I would like to convince (and help) him to start using Peppermint as a replacement (or at least as an much safer alternative) to M$ Windows

Our questions for you are:

1. In order to use Wine within a Linux distro to play "Windows" games is it necessary to also have M$ Windows installed on another partition of the computer (in order to access the needed libraries)?

2. Can one somehow backup the Windows libraries, delete the M$ Windows installation completely, install Peppermint, and then Wine, and then copy just the Windows libraries to some partition or directory so that the Wine program can access them to play the "Windows" games?

Thanks in advance,

-- Slim
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 08, 2015, 10:51:33 am
1) no you don't "need" windows on the PC, but as you've guessed access to some of the linked libraries can help
(though most of the time these can be found online if necessary)

2) Theoretically yes .. for each application set up to run in WINE, you can set up links to required "native" DLL's if required.
(by far the majority of which are going to be in Windows/System32)

a) be aware not every Windows game will run under WINE .. and most won't run as well as under native windows .. but a few arfe actually supposed to run better
b) some may be difficult to set up
c) PlayOnLinux is not a "distro", it's just an application that sets up SOME windows applications/games under WINE automagically for you .. if you look you'll find it in the default repos ;)
d) winetricks will also help install some windows components that may help get the games working (again in the repos)

Personally I'm not a fan of WINE, I think running software under its native OS is pretty much always easier, better, smoother .. Linux isn't Windows and IMHO is shouldn't be pretending to be, it'll NEVER be as good as Windows at being Windows ;)

If he wants to continue .. the WINE application database would be a good start, he can search for his games and get some idea how well they'll run under WINE (or not) and usually pick up some clues on how to get them running (or not).

Top ten Platinum and Gold lists
https://appdb.winehq.org/
and search (or browse) the AppDB here:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&sTitle=Browse%20Applications&sOrderBy=appName&bAscending=true
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games
Post by: Slim.Fatz on May 08, 2015, 01:50:04 pm
Hi PCNetSpec,

Thank you for the quick a very informative reply. I will pass on the information and discuss it with him. If he has a large enough HDD with sufficient free space I can set up Peppermint on new partitions  and let him see for himself how damn good Peppermint really is compared to M$ Windows (except maybe for playing his "windows" games  ::) ). I can see him going for Peppermint for daily computer activities (spreadsheet work, writing documents, surfing the web, etc.) and perhaps retaining his M$ Windows installation for "gaming" (he does not do much online gaming, so those possible dangers are greatly reduced).

Regards,

-- Slim
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: sanguinemoon on May 12, 2015, 06:32:21 am
There are quite a few Linux games available through Steam, (http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=&sort_by=_ASC&os=linux&page=1) but I guess that depends on what he wants to play.  There were some Windows gamers at work that were surprised when I told them Steam even exists for Linux.
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: mattosensei on May 26, 2015, 02:19:52 pm
+1 for using Steam and the increasing number of Linux games on that platform including great titles like Civilization series etc. More and more are being launched with Linux versions these days.

I think the only time I used PlayOnLinux was to play Hearthstone which ran 'ok'. There is the odd issue though. Agree with Mark that it'll never likely run as well as on its native platform, and you may have to compromise on some things

For me, the only reason I keep duel boot (Win 7) on my desktop is for some Win games that don't port well.

We dream of a golden age in which ALL games are made available as Linux versions   :D
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: scifidude79 on June 02, 2015, 06:04:18 pm
Just to add to this discussion for those wanting to know more, Wine runs decent(ish) on some games, not so much for every one.  Games that are heavily DirectX dependent, especially 3D games, can have serious issues and may require tweaks to your Wine configuration.  Some Nvidia graphics processors can also be problematic with Wine.  One of the best things you can do is hit the Wine HQ website and check their App DB to see if the game/software you want to run is listed.  The advantage of this is that someone else will have tried running it and will tell you if it ran well and what things you can do to improve performance.  Though, some of their test results are pretty old.  You can also try PlayOnLinux, which is in the repositories.  The advantage of this is that, if you can find the game you want to play listed, it will actually find and download a custom install of the version of Wine best suited for that game.  It's a pretty sweet program, but you do need plenty of HD space for all of those Wine installations.  ;)

However, the best advice I can give anybody wanting to game on Linux is to see if the game is available native.   As sanguinemoon said, Steam is available Linux native, and many games are available for Linux on it.  Though, you do need to be careful as some of their "Linux" releases are just Wine ports.  I have one that I bought months ago which is a Crossover (altered, paid version of Wine) port, but I didn't know that when I bought it.  Also, GOG (good old games) is another site with a good selection of Linux games for sale, with more added frequently.  In fact, I almost like GOG better than Steam at times because a lot of their old DOS games in their store are available for Linux, where the same ones on Steam aren't.  They're just DOSBox ports, so there's no reason they can't run on Linux.  A couple of games I already had on there (Duke Nukem and Duke Nukem 2) were recently released for Linux, which made me happy.  Plus, GOG offers .deb package downloads, as opposed to having to use a DRM game client.  And, both stores will let you download any game you buy at any time for your platform when it becomes available, which is really nice.

So, it's a really fantastic time to be a Linux gamer.  This is as opposed to 6 years ago, when I first started on Linux, where pretty much all you had was whatever was in the repositories.  Personally, I don't buy games anymore without a Linux native version, as I only run Windows on one computer and not by choice.  (and maybe not for much longer)
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: AndyInMokum on June 03, 2015, 04:12:19 am
I'm no big gamer.  I have Steam installed and have Half-Life, Half-Life 2 and SteamWorld Dig, (if you're unfamiliar with SteamWorld Dig, you should check it out.  It's a blast).  These are all ported for Linux.  This is where I make my assessment of WINE.  On one hand it's a blessing because it provides access to otherwise inaccessible titles.  On the other hand it's a curse.  WINE seriously reduces the incentive for games developers to invest time, effort and the most conspicuous motivator - money into porting their games to Linux.  It's been done for them by proxy.  Okay games don't run as well for the most part.  However they're adequate and weighing that against the cost of development and maintenance.  They're happy to roll with it.   This in turn helps to perpetuate the myth that Linux can't play games.

On a similar note.  I was reading the other day an article about Logitech, (I wish I could find it).  Anyway to cut to the chase.  It got me fired up.  A Linux user got in touch with Logitech's technical support.  He said he was very snootily told that Logitech does not support Linux.  He was then told that there are 3rd party alternatives that provide solutions.  He was given no indication of which software to look for.  He was just told to do a Google search.  I was nodding in agreement, thinking about congruity and concordance and how these work better than Logitech's in house software.  That's when the alarm bells went off in my head.  Of course Logitech aren't going to provide Linux support.  Why the hell should they, when 3rd party software developers are doing a better job than they can for free.  What really ticks me off about proprietary parasites like Logitech.  They don't even make an acknowledgment gesture by providing some funding to maintain these projects.  They're happy enough that Linux users buy their products though.  I personally think that companies that rely on the goodwill of the Linux community without providing any funding should be named and shamed. 

Wow, this coffee today has really given me the grumps.  That's my rant over - for now  >:(!!
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: PCNetSpec on June 03, 2015, 05:38:16 am
And an interesting  and accurate rant it was .. that would probably be a very good idea for a website, hell you could sell t-shirts.

OK, now I wanna "Logitech Leech Linux .. shame on you" t-shirt. :)
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: AndyInMokum on June 03, 2015, 06:12:26 am
There you go,  Logitech are now officially Logitech Leech or just plain, Logileech.   They can keep the name - gratis and with the thanks of the Linux community  ;)!!
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: sanguinemoon on June 03, 2015, 06:16:30 am
That's something I never thought about since I just plug in my keyboards and mice and it's good to go. I think that guy needed something like Solaar  (https://pwr.github.io/Solaar/)?
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: sanguinemoon on June 03, 2015, 06:25:12 am
I wrote them a new corporate slogan. Let's see if they'll accept it :)

Logileech , larcenously leeching Linux with lavicious longing for legal tender since 1991 (tm)
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: AndyInMokum on June 03, 2015, 06:27:49 am
Lovin' it  :D!!
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: PCNetSpec on June 03, 2015, 07:15:31 am
@sanguinemoon

Have you ever worked at the Sun newspaper by any chance ?
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: scifidude79 on June 03, 2015, 12:39:33 pm
Well, crap.  I guess I'm done using Logitech.  (after my mice and speakers die, let's not get crazy)

Back on Andy's comments about Wine, I think he's right that it does kill the incentive of developers.  I hate it when I'm on a site like Steam or GOG and people (usually, including me) are asking for a Linux port of something and several other users chime in with "just run it on Wine."    ::)  It's that kind of mentality that keeps some stuff from being ported.
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: VinDSL on June 03, 2015, 07:53:08 pm
Well, crap.  I guess I'm done using Logitech.  (after my mice and speakers die, let's not get crazy)

Funny you should mention that!   Why?  ;D

2 days ago, while updating a Wikipedia article (ahem), my Logitech corded mouse decided to go crazy - highlighting text, every time I moved it - clicking hyperlinks all over the page, without me touching the buttons, and so forth, and so on.

I grabbed an old 2-button Logitech mouse out of the closet, that I keep around for emergencies.  The pointer froze, every few seconds.  I spent more time pounding it on my desk, trying to break it to pieces, than typing.

My Logitech wireless mouse wasn't much better.  It's got its own special set of quirks (which I won't bore you with).

I'm done with Logitech.  I've got boxes of  Logitech junk  in my garage, with various problems, that I've collected over the years .  This latest failure is the final stray.

I've had good luck with Dell mouses at work.  The cheap ones work surprisingly good, and they take a beating, literally.

You'll probably laugh at this, but here's what I ordered, last night:  http://goo.gl/Js6E9N

!000 dpi 3-button optical mouse, with a flexible, light & long cord, and a scroll wheel made in heaven.

Best part is, they sell them factory-new (in the bag) on flea-bay for USD $8.00 delivered to your door.

Screw Logitech!!! 

Okay, I'll stop now.  I don't want to hijack this thread.  LoL   :D
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: scifidude79 on June 03, 2015, 09:10:25 pm
I've noticed my wireless Logitech mouse is a little fluttery in Peppermint 6.  It's starting to drive me crazy (short trip.)  The problem is, all I have are Logitech mice.   ::)

Here's some irony for everyone.  The only controller guaranteed to work with Wine for Linux is a Microsoft XBOX 360 controller.  Most games won't support anything else.  (at least, until Valve releases their controller this fall)  Of course, in Windows, you can use whatever controller you want and it will work, but the M$ one is the only one that will work in Linux.  Sheer irony.   ???
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: PCNetSpec on June 04, 2015, 07:45:26 am
You wanna try going back to the original 3.13 kernel and xorg stack ? (same as Peppermint 5)

All the goodness of the Peppermint 6 feature list with the proven kernel and xorg stack of Peppermint 5 :)
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: scifidude79 on June 04, 2015, 01:34:17 pm
I don't know about VinDSL, but I mostly fixed my mouse issues by disabling the desktop effects.  I really don't like that kind of fluff anyway, so it was no big loss for me.

Though, it sounds like his are way worse than mine were.
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: VinDSL on June 04, 2015, 07:43:58 pm
I don't mean to anthropomorphize mice, but each one of mine DOES have its own distinct personality, and I can tell when they're starting to get 'sick'.

I knew my final (and last) Logitech corded mouse was getting janky about 3 weeks ago, but I chucked it off to Ubu 15.10 and/or the highly unstable Linux 4.1-rc2 mainline kernel.  The thing is, I dual-booted into Ubu 10.10 (which is rock solid on this machine) and the mouse was doing the same thing(s).

I started *thinking* it might be a hardware issue with my mobo, but I borrowed my wife's 'Hello Kitty' mouse, and it worked fine.

Personally, I have a sneaking suspicion that Logitech purposely designs their products to fail after a certain length of time - preferably after the warranty expires .  They aren't going to stay in business making devices that last a lifetime.  And, to be fair, they aren't unique in this business model.

EXTRA CREDIT READING:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence#Lifespan-limiting_design

As an aside, I  own a 1946 Indian Chief - which would still be running fine, right now, if I wanted to buy a new battery for it.  Reportedly, that's one of the major reasons Indian Motorcycle Company went out of business.  When the dealer sold someone a new Indian, they wouldn't see the customer again for 5 years.  Harley-Davidson motorcycles, on the other hand, required constant maintenance and repairs.  Guess who survived and prospered?!?!

Anyway, I have have high hopes for my flea-bay Dell mouse.  If it works as good here, as it does at work, I'll buy 10 more of them, and stick 'em in the closet, for future use.

That's the kinda guy I am...  LoL   :D
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: scifidude79 on June 04, 2015, 08:14:25 pm
I tend to tear through mice quickly no matter what brand I use, because I do CGI and play games, both of which are very mouse intensive.

Yeah, most electronics companies do design their stuff to fail after a certain length of time.  Nobody builds anything to last anymore.  Though, Logitech's quality has gone in the toilet in the past 10 years or so.  Their stuff breaks earlier than it should.  I finally stopped buying Logitech game controllers after those kept breaking after a couple years.

As for the motorcycle, try saying that about a car, truck or motorcycle from this year.  I doubt they'll still be on the road in 30 years, let alone 70.
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: PCNetSpec on June 05, 2015, 06:34:11 am
I "get it" with cars/bikes/etc. .. they are now MUCH more complex (for safety/performance/equipment level sake so there are far more little things to go wrong, which eventually stack up to making it no longer worth the cost.

What pi**es me off though is why do washing machines/fridges/other white goods now all fail 10 minutes after the guarantee expires (and you can no longer buy spares to fix em, in fact they're designed to not allow you to fix them) .. how is this acceptable in the current "we're killing the planet" climate.  :-\

Surely there's room for a company to make money from spares .. in fact I'm of the opinion that in the current climate, given the choice people would be willing to spend a little extra on their initial white goods purchase if the knew for surre that they'd sell spares for the things well into the future. Surely this can be done in the white good arena, I mean how much has washing machines technology changed or is liable to change.

As I said, this doesn't apply to cars/bikes/etc. .. their technology (and just the publics taste in appearance/style) changes quite quickly .. but a washing machine is a washing machine for christ sake, build em to be repairable ::)

[EDIT]

RANT OVER...

"I can quite often be found drinking wine staring through the window of Game"  <-- placed to stay "on topic"
(for our American friends "Game" is a UK shop .. guess what they sell ?)
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: VinDSL on June 05, 2015, 07:12:39 am
As I said, this doesn't apply to cars/bikes/etc. .. their technology (and just the publics taste in appearance/style) changes quite quickly .. but a washing machine is a washing machine for christ sake, build em to be repairable ::)

I'm a machinist, by trade (among other things), so I have a natural proclivity to take things apart and fix them, including 'white goods'.

The problem(s) with washing machines is:


In my experience, clothes dryers will outlast washers 3:1 because people under-load them, et cetera.

Truthfully, the only washers that last are ones designed and build for commercial work, such as Speed Queens.

LINK:  http://speedqueen.com/

I'm still using the first one I bought, and that was probably 20 years ago.  It's actually outlasted three (consumer grade) dryers.   ;D
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: PCNetSpec on June 05, 2015, 07:24:00 am
My point is that 30 years ago white goods were built to be fixable .. eg. you could buy a new motor/drum/switch/bearings/etc. and fit them (either yourself or hire someone).

Nowadays you can't buy the spares, and just to make sure you don't go fittting a third party motor/drum/etc. they're specifically designed to stop you .. on top of that they're ALL doing it.

it's more than planned obsolescence .. it's ENFORCED obsolescence with ZERO way (for Joe Average) to opt out of this particular rat race.  >:(
Title: Re: Wine, Windows and Games [SOLVED]
Post by: AndyInMokum on June 05, 2015, 08:50:48 am
The wonderful world of capitalism.  You have to perpetuate sales at the expense of the customer, in order to keep the shareholders sweet  >:(.