Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => GNU/Linux Discussion => Topic started by: pin on October 20, 2019, 02:38:04 am

Title: When do we say its enough?
Post by: pin on October 20, 2019, 02:38:04 am
Honest question here  :(
How far are we (Linux users) willing to go?
This time I think it goes too far, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=systemd-homed
Or, a longer one here, https://hackaday.com/2019/10/16/pack-your-bags-systemd-is-taking-you-to-a-new-home/

Coming soon to your system!  :'(

This time it went to far.  >:(
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: VinDSL on October 20, 2019, 02:58:20 am
BSD (https://www.freebsd.org/) is looking better, all the time   8)







Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: pin on October 20, 2019, 03:47:25 am
Yes and no.
Yes, for the moment. But, if/when software is designed with systemd in mind it will become difficult to port it over.
So, the crap will eventually hit the fan!  :'(

Looking at Void for example. They had to implement elogind (drop-in replacement for systemd-logind) because ConsoleKit2 is no longer maintained.
On NetBSD I just got rid of it all and use the mount command whenever I need to attach an external device. Also, as a consequence, there is no trash bin on the file manager. Oh well, who cares... the rm command still works.  8)
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: Johan on October 20, 2019, 05:04:14 am
BSD (https://www.freebsd.org/) is looking better, all the time   8)

Or MX? I understand that systemd is a bad thing? I'm just a user and don't understand what all the fuss is about. Can you explain?
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: VinDSL on October 20, 2019, 10:58:40 am
Oh well, who cares... the rm command still works.  8)

Bwahahahahaha :))


Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: VinDSL on October 20, 2019, 11:10:00 am
BSD (https://www.freebsd.org/) is looking better, all the time   8)

Or MX? I understand that systemd is a bad thing? I'm just a user and don't understand what all the fuss is about. Can you explain?

When Al Gore invented the Internet, I cut my web teeth on BSD. IMO, there's BSD, then... there's everything else.

If I could find BSD hosting at a reasonable price, I'd be using it, but I settled for a CentOS VPS server (currently).

Pin's second (Hackaday) link does a fine job of explaining his 'went to far' comment. Read the comments too.  ;)
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: VinDSL on October 20, 2019, 01:41:41 pm
Yes and no.
Yes, for the moment. But, if/when software is designed with systemd in mind it will become difficult to port it over.
So, the crap will eventually hit the fan!  :'(

Heh. Now, you're in my head, Pin  ;D

You got me thinking about what I actually do with computers. It hasn't really changed, for me, in all these years.

I'm sitting here on workspace 1, looking at 4 displays.On workspace 2:My needs are very simple.

I think BSD would work fine - I ran it on my desktop a few years ago - but, I prefer hanging with Peppermint.

I think I'll just continue to ignore systemd until it's all up in my mitt (https://is.gd/etn8Ea) ...   ;)
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: clatterfordslim on October 20, 2019, 02:26:15 pm
Weird that all this is going to happen, whilst Microsoft are ditching passwords altogether. I'm so glad that Linux does not rely on a cloud based system to save our passwords on. (https://vrcp.ru/smiles/dark/bp.gif)

Link to Insiders about Microsoft Passwords
https://tinyurl.com/y2swdea2

I am intrigued and quite impressed of us being able to have our home folders on a USB drive, to be able to plug into any other Linux system, but again we would all and especially maintainers PCNetSpec will have to re-learn when writing new versions of Pep of how to make sure all this is implemented properly. When Systemd first came out I can remember a cross vote of lovers and haters, this still applies today. Why try to fix something that ain't broke in the first place? Question springs to mind. (https://vrcp.ru/smiles/dy.gif) 
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 20, 2019, 07:48:23 pm
Whilst I'm usually no fan of systemd for many reasons (and I'll probably end up hating the implementation .. specially if done by LP via systemd), this particular area is something that actually COULD do with a little work and truly portable logins/home folders actually peaks my interest (if it can be done securely).
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: 151tom on October 20, 2019, 08:06:57 pm
Not happy with Linux?  You are entitled to a full refund of the purchase price!

Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: pin on October 21, 2019, 12:34:13 am
Yes, I see the point of  the improvment, I've listen to the talk and some of it sounds good.
Still,... baking another function into systemd and push it down your throat doesn't feel like the correct way to do it.

After all is LP not LT doing it ;)

Quote
Not happy with Linux?  You are entitled to a full refund of the purchase price!
:D
Although, I think you got it wrong. Its not Linux, I still can use the kernel.
(sorry for not being clear enough. I should have written GNU/Linux in my first post)  ::)

Actually, the kernel itself has become more portabel.  You no longer need gcc to compile it, it has ben sucessfully built with clang a few weeks ago.
This means that if, I install Alpine Linux and build the kernel with clang, I'll be running Linux and no longer GNU/Linux. No, there's no GlibC or GNU-core-utils either.

You see, there're always ways out of it.
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: 151tom on October 21, 2019, 07:48:04 am
Quote
Not happy with Linux?  You are entitled to a full refund of the purchase price!

Although, I think you got it wrong. Its not Linux,

Very possible.

I just install and use Linux OOTB and for the most have zero complaints.

I read all about users unhappiness with systemd although I don't understand what the issue is with systemd.

I just use Linux as it comes OOTB.

I guess I look at things different than most when something is free to use at zero cost how can one complain. ??? :-\
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: pin on October 21, 2019, 08:06:04 am
I could try to explain the reason why, but is it worthy?
Anyway,... I don't really like systemd, but put it this way. Its not so much systemd itself, but what comes with it.

Its taking away choice, that's the major issue.
Soon every Desktop Environment (DE) will be so tightly integrated that you can not use it on a non-systemd install. Its killing portability and that's what I dislike the most.

Would you say you're running Gentoo if you buy and use a chromebook? ChromeOS is actually not much more than packaged Gentoo.
Unfortunately, most Linux distros are becoming a systemd packaged OS, that's another thing I don't like.

Again, use systemd by all means but let's not force it on everyone by making fundamental software depending on it, that's all. Killing freedom of choice shouldn't be what Linux is about, or?!?
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: 151tom on October 21, 2019, 10:34:36 am
Again, use systemd by all means but let's not force it on everyone by making fundamental software depending on it, that's all. Killing freedom of choice shouldn't be what Linux is about, or?!?
Unfortunately we have no choice over what the developers do and it's a bummer.

There are a few Linux distros that are systemd free at the moment although how long those few choices will remain who knows.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the new Linux releases.
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 21, 2019, 10:46:23 am
Yes, I see the point of  the improvment, I've listen to the talk and some of it sounds good.
Still,... baking another function into systemd and push it down your throat doesn't feel like the correct way to do it.

Agreed, I'm not an 'integrated and indivisible' systemd fan and I'd much prefer it to be more 'standalone' .. but if systemd is already there, why not use it.....
(it's one of those chicken and egg/catch 22 situations)
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: pin on October 24, 2019, 04:12:02 pm
Ok guys! Have fun with systemd, I'm off for good!
100% migration to BSD is now accomplished.

VinDSL wrote...
Quote
I think BSD would work fine - I ran it on my desktop a few years ago - but, I prefer hanging with Peppermint.

I've chosen the red pill (actually, orange in my case) and I'm sure it will work just fine.

Maybe I will see some of you again!  :-* ...
...somewhere  :'(

Thank you all. I will miss you, but it just doesn't feel right anymore.
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: clatterfordslim on October 24, 2019, 06:50:19 pm
Pin you can't leave us, surely to everything as holy as my Jumper just because you have gone to BSD does not mean you have to leave Pep Forums. I run other OSES as well as the Pep, though Peppermint is my go to OS., but I run Linux Mint, Linux Lite, Manjaro too. I think this Systemd thing has not even happened yet and it surely won't till a lot of creases has been ironed out. I love reading your posts and the help you give others here on this forum, you will be wholeheartedly missed.  :'(
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: The Omen on October 24, 2019, 10:00:26 pm
Hi Pin, I am but a young boy, only just 18 now, but i have been allowed by my "mentor" to read your posts over the last three years, even though he is "banned for life" here in the Peppermint Forums, but encouraged me to join regardless of his being banned.

I know i do not "know" you, but feel that I DO know you somewhat by reading your posts and all the help you have given others.

Just because you are moving on to another OS does not mean you need to leave the forum, your talent and expertise is still valuable here even if you are moving in a different direction.

Just because your not using Peppermint anymore shouldn't mean that you can't be in the forum anymore.

I am sorry to see you leaving, as I believe that you have so much to share with others that really could benefit from your knowledge.

Your also a "trusted user" and "Veteran" as seen in your "Pin Name" logo.

Warmest Regards and best wishes to you,

The Omen
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: esjay on November 20, 2019, 02:56:07 pm
Have a look and think about it:

https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002

Personally speaking, I dare to say that every systemd user has no real reason to feel naked in comparison to other users of other init systems. There are way more ways to get hacked. So many engineers (Fedora, Ubuntu, Suse, communities) have a close look.

I like Pep with systemd. If the debian vote mentioned above would show a strong sign against using systmd - well, I would change my mind. But not now.
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: zarg2 on December 06, 2019, 07:49:14 am
Over at MX/Antix where I spend time as they are two of my go-to's for old hardware, the Devs are trying to figure out in the long term how to sustain a Debian based distro with Debian going Systemd. they don't currently se A Devuan base as an option. Standalones like Solus are admirable but the amount of work required to support a standalone distro must be enormous.

Personally I am taking the middle path. I use Peppermint 10 now on my main and take advantage of ICE to set up SSBs for banking. I have live persistent USBs of Antix for when I'm traveling.

My most "exposed" machine is my GalliumOs Chromebook with chromium as the browser; I never do anything financial on it and run noscript to cut down on tracking nonsense.

But; with using voice searches on the phone, having an android tv that "watches" what one watches, etc. unless one goes almost completely offline, one is being tracked :'(
Title: Re: When do we say its enough?
Post by: PCNetSpec on December 06, 2019, 02:15:16 pm
systemd is like the Borg in many respects...

sh*t gets assimilated, and resistance is futile ;)