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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: VinDSL on September 17, 2019, 10:43:01 pm

Title: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: VinDSL on September 17, 2019, 10:43:01 pm
Quote
Ubuntu developers have detailed the process by which 32-bit library and app compatibility will be maintained in Ubuntu 19.10 and up.

You may recall that Ubuntu planned to drop the 32-bit archive fully in Ubuntu 19.10 ó if you donít, I didnít know holidays on the moon were a thing ó only to u-turn following user outcry.

The sheer scale of the community reaction to their plans (which had been public knowledge for a while) coupled with Valve disavowing Ubuntu support should things come to pass, quickly induced a rethink.

ARTICLE: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/09/ubuntu-32-bit-support-process-outlined
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 18, 2019, 05:30:47 pm
Well as they're killing off all the 32bit software packages I guess that kills off Peppermint 32bit ISO's (beyond PM10) :(

MX (via Debian) are likely to be getting a few more users soon .. they'll be one of the few left with 32bit ISO's
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: VinDSL on September 18, 2019, 09:53:53 pm
Yeah, we'll see how it pans out. I'm totally down with running PM10, until it dies of old age.

My 32bit Dell is 257 years old, in human years. Nothing lasts forever...  ;)




Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: 151tom on September 20, 2019, 11:03:39 am
Can't change what we have no control over "Progress" and we either move ahead or get left behind nothing lasts forever.

No complaints. :)

Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 20, 2019, 11:27:35 am
At first I disagreed with dropping 32bit, but I guess as mainly a legacy architecture it had to dies at some point and 2023 is probably long enough.

It'll certainly make my job a bit easier :)
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: spence on September 20, 2019, 02:39:18 pm
Feel free to delete this ;)

Was pondering dropping a post about this on our FB and MeWe pages. I'll link to it later from my twttr and Vero. Any objectons @PCNetSpec?

Quote
#TeamPeppermint are not yet sure how this will affect our ability to release any future 32 bit releases of Peppermint beyond Peppermint 10, but here's the latest news from Ubuntu:
[/s]
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: Master on September 20, 2019, 02:53:16 pm
But seriously, 64bit should have been reserved for server use only at 100%, but users pc should be optional to have full 64bit (those with 4GB+ RAM), the killing of 32bit is just going to bring in more heavy resource hogging software. I think thats why in Windows world its 32bit first, then 64bit should you really need an application that consumes more than 4GB RAM.
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 21, 2019, 10:58:21 am
Not sure I agree with that, there's no real technical reason 64bit software should be resource heavier than 32bit .. in fact technically running 32bit software on a 64bit OS should be heavier because it requires an emulator (WOW64 on Windows, and additional support libs in Linux).

Now that's not to say IN PRACTICE that 64bit apps aren't often heavier (they tend to be newer and utilise newer libraries), just that they don't HAVE to be.



Really it's a case of - do upstream continue to fully maintain all the 32bit apps when their own usage figures suggest 32bit ISO's are rarely used these days .. I mean that's a LOT of man hours and effort for very few users. At some point 32bit needs to disappear, keeping it around is not only a massive effort but doesn't encourage the few devs left that haven't ported their software 32bit --> 64bit to get of their a**es and do it (in the same way browsers supporting flash for years didn't encourage devs to move their software from flash --> html5).

Oddly I'd say maintaining 32bit (but just the necessary libs, not all the software) make more sense for the server/corporate environment than the desktop .. like Windows they're more tied to backwards compatibility. Windows cannot afford to ditch 32bit entirely, imagine the uproar if half the bespoke corporate software stopped working .. in the Linux server/corporate world software isn't generally the problem, more some older drivers (think things like printers/plotters/etc.). But that's the plan, ditch the 32bit software (I mean nobody uses or creates it any more) but keep just the libs that will allow 32bit functionality.

You also have to consider a LOT of software is now ONLY being developed as 64bit (take Chrome/Skype/etc. for example), so it's becoming progressively harder to create a functional desktop experience as time goes on, and this is accelerating exponentially.

IMHO, Linux needs to drop 32bit ISO's (there's very little 32bit only hardware left out there), but for the time being keep the 32bit libraries that allow legacy 32bit software to work in 64bit Linux .. but EVENTUALLY even those libs needs to disappear.
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: The Omen on September 21, 2019, 11:23:23 am
For what its worth, i also have an antique eeepc 1015pe series netbook that originally ran i think it was winxp 32 bit even though it has an Intel n450 processor that is rated for 64 bit.

I installed Peppermint 10 64 bit on it and stripped the hell out of it so it could function reasonably well. many tweaks and hacks, lol.

it is still all original with the 1 gig ram, 160 gig HDD'

It cold boots in 45 sec. and reboots in about 38 sec.

other than using an SSD which is not going to happen since i use it to just experiment with, i am thinking that this is just fine.

i have heard through the grapevine that a P 10 respin is forthcoming and would love to know if there is going to be an easy upgrade proceedure or to just let it be.
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 21, 2019, 11:34:48 am
On the whole I'm not a fan of 'automated' upgrade procedures for these reasons:-
https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,8397.msg86441.html#msg86441

But I am likely to post MANUAL PM10 --> PM10R instructions somewhere on this forum shortly after the release.
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: The Omen on September 21, 2019, 11:50:09 am
Oh, you got me wrong on that one.

I would not want it to be an automatic proceedure.

I would desire a manual proceedure only.
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 21, 2019, 11:56:43 am
Cool, in that case "yep" :))
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: VinDSL on September 21, 2019, 10:25:05 pm
[...]  usage figures suggest 32bit ISO's are rarely used these days [...]

Wait...WHAT?   ;D


Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 22, 2019, 10:32:28 am
Ubuntu have been consistently saying for years 32bit ISO downloads have been tanking.

Their usage stats, granted for 18.04 where only Xubuntu and Lubuntu released 32bit ISO's, state 98% of users are on AMD64
https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics

Now I do have to admit that OUR download figures seem to suggest 32bit downloads aren't that far behind 64bit, I'm assuming that's because people often come to Peppermint SPECIFICALLY for older hardware.
(So this enforced dropping of 32bit ain't gonna do us any favours, but it is what it is)

The only other conclusion is Ubuntu (and other distros) have been lying about their stats.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: VinDSL on September 22, 2019, 01:51:00 pm
(http://vindsl.com/images/Selectionshot_2019-09-22_10:48:04.png)
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: clatterfordslim on September 23, 2019, 05:49:39 am
Ubuntu have been consistently saying for years 32bit ISO downloads have been tanking.

Their usage stats, granted for 18.04 where only Xubuntu and Lubuntu released 32bit ISO's, state 98% of users are on AMD64
https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics

Now I do have to admit that OUR download figures seem to suggest 32bit downloads aren't that far behind 64bit, I'm assuming that's because people often come to Peppermint SPECIFICALLY for older hardware.
(So this enforced dropping of 32bit ain't gonna do us any favours, but it is what it is)

The only other conclusion is Ubuntu (and other distros) have been lying about their stats.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

 A lot of computers these days and in the past have a 64bit processor, but because the original OS that was on them was 32bit people literally thought that, that was all their computer could handle? Ram does play a part too though does it not?
Sorry to sound so posh on
Code: [Select]
Does It Not?

 I always thought that if you had 4GB or more of ram, then you could run 64Bit easier, than on anything less than, like those weird 3GB Ram Dell computers running 32Bit only, but they have a AMD 64Bit processor or an Intel one. I had one and it originally only had 3GB of Ram, the bloke in the shop I bought it from had upgraded it to 4GB and said that 64Bit Windows 7 would not install when it only had 3GB of Ram so he upgraded it to 4GB and the processor loved 64Bit Linux, especially Peppermint 9 Respin. It's weird that loads of computers out there in the wilds are 32Bit only, but have a 64Bit processor and with a slight upgrade of Ram can be made into 64Bit. But I guess for the majority if not all of your everyday run of the mill person does not know or want to know such things?  ;D
Title: Re: Ubuntu Devs Detail Plan for 32-bit Support in Ubuntu 19.10
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 23, 2019, 11:28:26 am
4GB system memory was a hard limit for 32bit addressability, so anything above 4GB was wasted .. but Physical Address Extension (PAE) allowed for addressing more than 4GB if the 32bit kernel was built to support it, allowing for 36bit addressability (up to 64GB memory).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension

Most Linux distros have over the last few years supported PAE (on their 32bit versions) out of the box .. Peppermint has since at least version 6