Peppermint OS

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: grafiksinc on February 20, 2018, 01:41:16 am

Title: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: grafiksinc on February 20, 2018, 01:41:16 am
So, I been reading and listening to a lot of news on this subject.
And today I was listing to Linux Action News and they were discussing it as well.
They brought up something I did not think... about which was how would this affect downstream distros.

Here is the part when they start talking about it:
https://youtu.be/8QQ0FZ9YH6Q?t=1200  (https://youtu.be/8QQ0FZ9YH6Q?t=1200)
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: pin on February 20, 2018, 02:07:59 am
Well, this https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-February/040139.html really SUCKS  :'(!
Sorry, just my opinion!
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 20, 2018, 03:08:45 am
I don't understand what all the fuss is about .. I absolutely don't mind helping those that help me as long as it's not harming me .. unless this is proven to be identifiable data and/or used nefariously I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, Ubuntu are NOT Microsoft .. this is not keystroke logging or accessing user data, it's hardware data, installed packages, and automatic crash reports, all of which are useful for them and not a problem for me (if I were running Ubuntu).

To me this is like a broadcasting company monitoring which TV programs are popular so they can improve their program schedule .. as long as it's anonymous it's useful data, as long as they don't start trying to identify an individuals viewing habits it's not a problem.

I'm not even seeing much new here .. they can get data about package downloads from their repos anyway but that only shows packages downloaded, it doesn't help them understand if it stays on your system or is removed immediately (suggesting a problem somewhere). Apport is already there by default so the only real shift is they're asking you if apport can report at installation rather than each time a problem is detected.

If they chose to do so privacy advocates could even see this as a good thing .. a single permanent 'opt out' switch that shows clear intent by a user to NOT stats monitored instead of the current setup where you have to either uninstall apport or opt to not send data every time a 'problem' is detected .. THEN they would have a clear argument something iffy was going on if data was found to still being collected.

That said, this is about anonymously making Ubuntu better so though the hardware data might help them, package usage data from Peppermint users might skew their data (such as appearing that LO has been uninstalled, or that users have switched to Chromium, etc.) .. so in response to the OP, we'll disable it or make it opt in rather than opt out (as we already do by not having apport by default).
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: pin on February 20, 2018, 03:49:05 am
I do understand the point but, still I don't like it.

To me this is like a broadcasting company monitoring which TV programs are popular so they can improve their program schedule .. as long as it's anonymous it's useful data

I actually think this was the end of viewers choice! At least here, whenever I turn on my TV there are nearly only reality shows on, because that's what people want to see. Well, not me. So basically I don't watch TV anymore.

Oh, well! Google already knows everything anyway  :D


EDIT: By the way, thanks for switching off the option by default in Peppermint.
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: esjay on February 20, 2018, 12:35:11 pm
In my point of view, and of course this is very subjective, it looks like that a lot of people get a little bit too nervous about questions concerning data. It is much more likely that collecting even the smallest piece of data is interpreted as something negative, even if it might be intented to be just useful. The Ubuntu installer works and I can not see anything bad if Canonical is trying to make things a little bit better. I would say it is more like an evaluation, not a privacy invasion.
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 20, 2018, 01:21:18 pm
Let's be clear about this .. we WILL removed it in Peppermint because any data from Peppermint would not necessarily be useful to Ubuntu, and because we have no interest in or need for the data ourselves.

That said I think people are seriously overreacting about this .. they're NOT collecting "usage" data beyond which apps are installed which they could already monitor (in a less accurate way) if they wished by simply counting what is downloaded from launchpad, as Arch/Mint/Debian/etc. could also do and probably do do do do.

People are saying daft things like "it's the beginning of a slippery slope" and "it's just like Microsoft".. erm, they are giving ALL privacy conscious types a clear single click option to disable it. They are NOT collecting user identifiable data beyond that which is impossible not to (what I mean by this is even now every time you download an update or software your IP is theoretically available to them as it would be to Arch/Debian/etc., but they don't AFAIK do anything with it) .. they are NOT logging keystrokes, or reading your user files.

When they don't tell you, don't give you the option to disable, and collect data on what you actually do on your computer I'll moan too .. but they'd never survive that because it couldn't be hidden (benefits of open source, and the paranoia levels of those that use it).

This info will allow them to target limited resources, it will allow them useful (but anonymous) stats with which to attract developers or prove things to third parties such as nVidia and possible give them leverage to make them sit up and take notice, it will tell app devs if their software is buggy, it will give other devs an idea about which apps they could attempt to 'squeeze out' with better software .. it is NOT spying on you any more than McDonald's are spying on you because they know which burger and drinks to reorder (or not) because they anonymously counted sales (and complaints).
(okay maybe not a great analogy with what's happening with KFC ATM .. how the heck did KFC run out of chicken?, you'd think it's a pretty integral part of their business model :)))

[EDIT]

Crash report metrics have always been collected by Ubuntu's apport (as they are by KDE and others crash reporters) and published .. the only real difference is they're now asking you ONCE if you want to take part in bug triage instead of every time an app crashes.
https://errors.ubuntu.com/
I have no doubt the data is very useful for identifying problems that need attention and giving us a better experience (not to mention spotting apps that may be doing something they shouldn't) .. how else would they get that info ?

Sidenote - Good god according to apport gnome-software is buggy as heck, and has been forever :o

Again Peppermint does NOT ship with apport, this was (and remains) a decision about ISO size not because of privacy concerns .. and obviously because Peppermint doesn't crash in the first place right ? :))
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: grafiksinc on February 20, 2018, 03:10:04 pm
Quote
Peppermint doesn't crash in the first place
This is true....... ;)  Spoken like a true professional  8)
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 20, 2018, 03:50:12 pm
LOL, wonder where I got that from then ???
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: anselm on February 20, 2018, 04:43:41 pm
Once again the linux community over reacting, this non personal information Ubuntu collects could help linux in general, could benefit everyone.

I'm all for privacy, but linux needs hard numbers to grow. I swear seems like linux community like's to shot its self in the foot.  >:(
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 20, 2018, 06:34:04 pm
^this^

+1 :)
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: christianvl on February 20, 2018, 06:55:52 pm
I also don't mind offering my anonymous usage statistics...
Fedora had a very similar tool many years ago (I'm talking Fedora 7, yes, seven - they're now on 27). It was called smolt https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Smolt
I don't remember any complaints at all back then...
Why not help Ubuntu improve their distro? This will benefit so many people.

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Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 20, 2018, 07:00:35 pm
It's the anti-ubuntu train again .. if it were anyone else, people would see it for what it is (or just untick the box).

Thanks for the smolt info and link :)
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: grafiksinc on February 20, 2018, 08:08:47 pm
Quote
It's the anti-ubuntu train again ..
This is an interesting point.  Why all the hate for Ubuntu I wonder. :-\

Personally I quit Ubuntu back when the whole switching the "x" from right to left came about LOL ;). - petty I know.....but I Just did not like that flow..and too lazy to change it  ::)
Linux Mint was my saving grace at the time  cuz they kept a really good classic gnome2  layout,   and I stuck with them through Cinnamon and Mate.

But I left them after 8 years simply because I wanted  a change.........OK..... a little bit was their update policy and software bloat  ::)..... but, mostly for the change.
That's where my Peppermint story begins.

My point is, my reasons for leaving  were personal, I never really looked at Ubutntu as the big bad OS of Linux...  maybe it's the pure elites that started it (If you have never seen a Linux Elite before go visit the Debian forums or the Arch forums I promise you will run into a few of them ;))........... I dunno....  I can say I got respect for Ubuntu I know you guys remember what linux OS's looked like before the Ubuntu era LOL  :-X


Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: esjay on February 20, 2018, 09:56:54 pm
Quote
It's the anti-ubuntu train again ..
This is an interesting point.  Why all the hate for Ubuntu I wonder. :-\

This is what I am wondering about as well. Have a look at Distrowatch. While Ubuntu is downrated, all the *Buntus and Ubuntu derivatives get all the love of the users. Irrational exuberance.
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 21, 2018, 03:38:59 am
People love to hate, and are sheep .. simple as that.

I watch all the youtube comments and regularly laugh at the way if the first few comments are positive about Ubuntu so are the vast majority of "me too" posts .. conversely if the first couple of comments are negative the people who'd normally be positive stay quiet for fear of being labelled somehow.
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: pin on February 21, 2018, 04:39:35 am
Humm! I guess you guys misunderstood me slightly... I'm not an Ubuntu hater  ;) or else I wouldn't be here.
Here's how I would like it to be...
During installation a dialogue box would open asking "Would you like to share ... with us .... to help us improve your experience and future versions of Ubuntu? If so, please agree with ...Thank you!"
I would then gladly share whatever but, I don't like that it's enabled by default.
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: christianvl on February 21, 2018, 04:55:45 am
Humm! I guess you guys misunderstood me slightly... I'm not an Ubuntu hater  ;) or else I wouldn't be here.
We're sure you don't!  :)
We all love (and love to hate) Ubuntu. You can even not like the default Ubuntu and still love "any"buntu.
I agree with you that the best approach would be to invite users to contribute with their data (and I guess that's exactly what they'll do - maybe in some fine prints?). Nevertheless, IMO Ubuntu is being very clear and open on what they're doing, and that's good.
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 21, 2018, 08:50:31 am
Opt 'in' would be a non starter .. nobody would select it, and the entire exercise goes down the pan .. in fact they'd probably end up with less data than they do now.

Point is they told you about it, and are giving you the option to 'opt out' at any time you choose .. the rest is just semantics.

I personally (if I used Ubuntu) would have no problem with it being "opt out" as long as the data is anonymous and the option is CLEARLY displayed.

Anyone who's too damn lazy to read the Ubiquity notes during installation is probably too damn thick to be making Linux installation decisions in the first place .. Linux has ALWAYS been about presenting you with the options and allowing you to decide, defaults are as irrelevant as people whinging about a default wallpaper, just change it.

BTW, I'm not aiming this at you pin, you're entitled to your opinion and you're being fair, balanced, and articulate with it .. more some of the daft comments I've seen on YouTube. ;)
Title: Re: Ok......on the Ubtunu Installer tracking subject.
Post by: christianvl on February 23, 2018, 02:17:45 pm
Here's an update: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/02/ubuntu-data-collection-in-18-04-upgrades

Looks like it will be "opt-in" after all.

Edit: I was mistaken. It will be "opt-in" basis only for upgrades. Sorry everyone.

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