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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: The PoorGuy on July 30, 2017, 05:51:19 pm

Title: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: The PoorGuy on July 30, 2017, 05:51:19 pm
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Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 30, 2017, 08:00:28 pm
Yep, nearly always a case of 'lowest bid' caps .. the cynic in me says they choose the cheapest not to save a few pennies, but to sell you a new mobo.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: cavy on July 30, 2017, 08:04:24 pm
Yep, nearly always a case of 'lowest bid' caps .. the cynic in me says they choose the cheapest not to save a few pennies, but to sell you a new mobo.

Tell me about it...! LOL.....! How many T-shirts have I got, lol...!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: VinDSL on July 30, 2017, 08:22:35 pm
Yep, caps n' batteries.

Caps go bad and fry other components due to excess heat/voltage. 

Batteries on mobos get weak, and start wreaking havoc with your BIOS settings.  I've had batteries go janky and require the BIOS to be re-flashed.

And/or a combination of both ...
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: cavy on July 30, 2017, 09:06:20 pm
Yep, caps n' batteries.

Caps go bad and fry other components due to excess heat/voltage. 

Batteries on mobos get weak, and start wreaking havoc with your BIOS settings.  I've had batteries go janky and require the BIOS to be re-flashed.

And/or a combination of both ...

I hear you, and currently in a steep learning curve with batteries and BIOS. The reclaimed battery I got my donor machine did solve a lot of issues with my Vostro. But I'm erring or thinking towards a graphic issues. LOL...!   ;)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: The PoorGuy on July 30, 2017, 10:44:46 pm
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Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 31, 2017, 09:23:33 am
The problem is they know that unless it's a warrantee job it's beyond most peoples abilities, and it'll cost more to have caps replaced by someone else than the price of a new mobo .. so they make them out of peanut butter to last just as long as the warrantee.

in fact the manufacturers of decent components (such as genuine  Japanese electrolytic caps) generally find them harder to sell to mass market OEM's .. even though the price difference is pennies (when bought in bulk).

It's this "throw away/landfill" con that's driving me nutz .. and considering the long term cost to the planet is a disgrace that should be outlawed.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: scifidude79 on July 31, 2017, 11:52:01 am
Most electronics these days aren't intended to live much past their warranty.  We've become a disposable society, getting one gadget and throwing it away when the next model comes out.  Of course, not all of us feel this way, and instead prefer to use a device until it dies.  Well, that doesn't work so well for the companies making the devices.  If I buy a computer, or even just a mobo, and it serves me faithfully for 5-10 years, I have no reason to buy another, so they don't make more money off of me.  However, if it dies, I have to buy another sooner.  That's the thought process here.  Use cheapo, sub standard parts and it's sure to die sooner rather than later.  The last thing they want to do is fix stuff under warranty, so they try to make it last just past the warranty period.

Of course, if I buy a computer and it doesn't last much more than a couple years, like hell am I buying another from that same company.  ::)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 31, 2017, 12:19:45 pm
But I personally would like the option to spend a little more and have something that lasts and is designed to have replaceable (and upgradeable) components.

Problem is, nobody does this at the component level .. and even though everyone's bitching bout "green", they're moving away from it even at the PC "card/board/daughterboard" level.
(and even the made from custard friggin keyboard level .. I'm lookin at you HP ::))


Why can't we have things designed to be fixed/upgraded .. that model used to work (and still does in some market segments), you could get replacement parts for washing machines/vacuum/fridges years ago but not any more .. though the model still works for the auto industry supporting LOADS of third party businesses and a sh*t load of employment (though it's being eroded here too by the cost of diagnostics, and intentionally difficult/expensive to fix components).
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on July 31, 2017, 12:41:50 pm
The problem is they know that unless it's a warrantee job it's beyond most peoples abilities, and it'll cost more to have caps replaced by someone else than the price of a new mobo .. so they make them out of peanut butter to last just as long as the warrantee.

in fact the manufacturers of decent components (such as genuine  Japanese electrolytic caps) generally find them harder to sell to mass market OEM's .. even though the price difference is pennies.

It's this "throw away" con that's driving me nutz .. and considering the long term cost to the planet is a disgrace that should be outlawed.
And most consumers don't care. Cheap sells best, Laptop with same specs but 1% more expensive with twice the lifespan will sell worse on the mainstream market. Outlawing this is probably hard, but regulations for repair manuals (like schematics) and spare parts availability for at least a certain amount of time (like 10 years or at least 5) could probably help a lot. Alone if the average customer was aware that the devices are repairable they would probably let someone repair it more likely instead of throwing them away instantly. And guaranteed spare part availabilty would deccelerate the market a bit. Right know it seems like every few months there are new devices and once there are the first long term experiences the device is out of production anyways.

For the planet this is terrible, why do we need all these cheap things? We could reduce our resource consumption a lot without sacrificing much if the high end stuff would just be sold used and become the middle class four years later and entry level another three four later (or so).

However now this is getting political. And as long as the political goal of economy is having work instead of serving the people this is pointless.

I guess we have it way too well for most to realize that and another thing that no politician seems to realize is that we can't live against each other. An advanced society has to be based on thrust, if we would do anything for ourselves we couldn't specialize in  anything and wouldn't advance. With the egoism and lost thrust in other people and their work our society starts degenerating slowly.
But I think more and more people become aware of that and if they start acting instead of complaining we might see this changing.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 31, 2017, 01:16:15 pm
as long as the political goal of economy is having work instead of serving the people this is pointless.

That's not the goal though, the automotive industry is busy giving us an object lesson in that .. slowly killing an entire MASSIVE aftermarket component and repair industry (and associated jobs).

It's simply about shareholder dividends (and gambling on the stock market) .. benefiting ONLY  a few rich people at everyone else's (including the customers) expense.
Or from a political perspective, lobby groups, backhanders donations, and taxation.

Quote
But I think more and more people become aware of that and if they start acting instead of complaining we might see this changing.

Kinda hard when formal complaints and/or suggestions go unread/unhindered and there's no OPTION to complain/act with your chequebook because nobody offers that option (and there's a significant barrier to entry by new players).

I guess it's nothing new, mankind seems stuck in a perpetual cycle of 'screw everyone else' (including our own kids future) .. maybe I'm a fool to hope for anything more :(

Here endeth the political roadshow for today. :)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on July 31, 2017, 03:38:59 pm
By providing a noob-friendly Linux-Distro your definitely doing something for us and the planet, expanding the lifespan of our PCs/Notebooks ;)

I guess giving up on humanity isn't an option, then the whole life would be pointless. We can't change the world much alone, but if we can make it a bit better that's already something. At least I hope that I can one day look back at my life and know that the world would have been a bit worse without me. I'm not sure why so many people try to accumulate as much money as possible, once they start thinking about their lifes and realize it would have been the best thing for the world if they never existed that must be hard. For the unlikely case that I want to die as a millionaire one day I could always use a printer and or worst case a pen and print/draw myself a million spacebucks or whatever currency I desire ;D

That's the philosophical part for today dealt with :D
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on July 31, 2017, 03:56:17 pm
We can't change the world much alone, but if we can make it a bit better that's already something.

+100 :)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: spence on August 01, 2017, 11:30:38 am
this popped into my faceborg this morning...  thought some of you might enjoy the comment stream as well...  its a public post, so no need to actually have an account...

this  came out way way before I had the least bit of interest in computers, much to my father's dismay  ;)

https://www.facebook.com/TheVaultOfTheAtomicSpaceAge/photos/a.802060453206589.1073741828.802054119873889/1476081629137798 (https://www.facebook.com/TheVaultOfTheAtomicSpaceAge/photos/a.802060453206589.1073741828.802054119873889/1476081629137798)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: scifidude79 on August 01, 2017, 11:35:35 am
What?!  16kb RAM and 100kb storage for only $1600?!  Sign me up!  :P
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 01, 2017, 12:32:27 pm
What makes me laugh looking back at adverts like that is the "Yay" factor we associate with the tech of the day....

"each 5 1/4" diskette has 100k bytes of storage area, enough to hold entire files" .. as in "good god, an entire document on a single disk, whatever next" :o

Bear in mind ten minutes ago I ordered the missus a 128gb micro SDxc card for her new phone :D
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: scifidude79 on August 01, 2017, 01:38:57 pm
For sure, that was high tech back in the day.  I'm sure well worth the price.  Well before the days of budget PCs, that monster was probably built to last because most people couldn't afford to replace them often.

Here's a sign of how old that ad is:  Without the floppy drive, that computer was $400 less.  So, $400 for a floppy drive.

One thing I definitely don't miss is software on floppy discs.  Instead of pulling out a single disc or entering a download code, you pulled a stack of floppies out of the box and inserted them one at a time in sequence to install software.  ::)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 02, 2017, 04:53:01 am
Back in the days when software was developed on a paper... luckily those are over. At least that's what I thought until I had my first informatic lessons >:(
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: spence on August 02, 2017, 04:51:32 pm
For sure, that was high tech back in the day.  I'm sure well worth the price.  Well before the days of budget PCs, that monster was probably built to last because most people couldn't afford to replace them often.

Here's a sign of how old that ad is:  Without the floppy drive, that computer was $400 less.  So, $400 for a floppy drive.

One thing I definitely don't miss is software on floppy discs.  Instead of pulling out a single disc or entering a download code, you pulled a stack of floppies out of the box and inserted them one at a time in sequence to install software.  ::)

You did notice it was shipped as an unbuilt kit?
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: The PoorGuy on August 02, 2017, 08:16:34 pm
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Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 03, 2017, 02:35:05 am
But it's sad that a lot of companies are even investing work and money in making things hard to fix. WiFi-Card Whitelists, encrypted Smartbatteries, BIOS that doesn't allow you to boot from any device, ...
I guess for Office, Internet and Videos it's easy to get something that works. However the issues start when it should be mobile or you need more performance.

And that a lot of parts can't be fixed got a lot of less tech interessted people to think that electronics just can't be repaired. Most people throw their smartphone away when the USB port is worn out :-[

I never had a TV and don't have a radio (except for a small torch/radio thing with a winch, but that's more a backup for emergencies - like a longer power failure). Fixing an old TV might not be the issue, but finding a programme that's interesting ::).  I'm too young for this, I'm used to the internet which shows me what I want :D
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 03, 2017, 08:17:11 am
That reminds me of another pet peeve I have, USB ports on phones are a stupid idea ..  even though everyone seems to be raving about USB-C's ability to be plugged in both ways up, I'm seeing very few articles stating its weakness and that it's FAR inferior to Apples Lightning port.

Technically there's nothing in it, but mechanically it relies on a cable with a hole that fits in a socket on the device with a feeble (easily broken) plastic "tab" structure in the middle ... where apples Lightning has a metal tab on the cable, and the socket is a simple hole.

If the "tab" breaks on USB-C it's the device that needs replacing (or at least a new socket fitting) .. if the "tab" breaks on Lightning it's only the cable .. I know which I'd prefer to have to replace.

USB (all of them, but particularly Type C where ALL sockets are the same small and weak size even on things like printers) seems specifically designed to be weak .. but they wouldn't do that "by design" now would they ?
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: The PoorGuy on August 03, 2017, 08:22:36 am
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Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 03, 2017, 11:53:59 am
but they wouldn't do that "by design" now would they ?
No, they created Micro USB for a longer lifespan.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus
The micro format is the most durable from the point of view of designed insertion lifetime. The standard and mini connectors have a design lifetime of 1,500 insertion-removal cycles,[7] the improved Mini-B connectors increased this to 5,000. The micro connectors were designed with frequent charging of portable devices in mind, so have a design life of 10,000 cycles[7] and also place the flexible contacts, which wear out sooner, on the easily replaced cable, while the more durable rigid contacts are located in the receptacles.
[7] http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/devclass_docs/CabConn20.pdf

Not sure why I replaced the USB Ports with the durable rigid contacts, I guess I always did that wrong :-\.

When you red my first sentence you thought it was ironic, didn't you :P. Real-life satire at it's best and now you know why I never had a TV, Real(ity)TV for the win :D.



Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 03, 2017, 12:01:35 pm
When you red my first sentence you thought it was ironic, didn't you :P.

Not so much "irony" (though I get what you mean, and if it weren't complete drivel it would certainly be ironic :))) .. what immediately sprang to mind was either 'stupidity' or 'post event bullsh*t excuse' (by them not you) masquerading as imposed design limitation ;)

I did however immediately spot the satire though :)

Nobody had to "choose" microUSB (and with hindsight why would OEM's still 'choose' Type-C), it's not as though they had no other option than to go with something that already existed (in fact that should have given them the opportunity to evaluate its weaknesses) .. Apple didn't, and it's paid them handsomely .



IMHO USB type C (though technically quite clever) s a worse implementation of socket/plug than even microUSB and will fail (break) even more frequently .. but I'm of the opinion that is PRECISELY why it's been "chosen".

[EDIT]

I must admit I'm a little baffled why even Apple are switching to it though ??? .. maybe they too are giving up even the pretence of build quality.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 03, 2017, 02:24:28 pm
That's like with the privacy thing, with all the Win10 spying crap there was a wave of embarrassment and now it's the most used OS. Anyone knows it, (almost) noone cares.
Anyone knows Apple stuff doesn't have a long lifespan and noone cares. Simple.


I just got a defective powersupply (back to topic^^):
(https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/33668470/CIMG5919_close.jpg) (https://www.pic-upload.de)
HP Pavilion Notebook PSU, how old do you think it is?
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)
8 months
[close]
There's another cap blown as well (but not that nicely for a picture) and the ground cable was soldiered/glued in a horrible way to the connector.

However now the PCB is broken as well, the case is glued to the PCB in one spot in a way that the conductor track gets ripped of when opening the case. Doesn't matter I'm not repairing it anyways (I might harvest some parts from it) and it could actually be called a safety feature (anyone one smart enough to open a PSU is probably smart enough to bridge the gap). Or it's for those who try to repair stuff before contacting the support (destructive version of a warranty seal), because those warranty void stickers only work in the US, in the EU you can break them and your not losing the warranty unless you really broke the device.
It got replaced by HP, maybe the replacement lasts longer. The poor Pavilion is used as a business machine running every day, I'm sure it can't be too long until it starts falling apart. My pavilion died pretty quick after it got two years old (was my first laptop purchase, I didn't know how crappy they are - and it didn't look bad for the first two years), Heatpipe leaking (it was filled with ammonia), battery dying, hinges going bad and some weird issues (which might have been caused by the mainboard being steamed with ammonia maybe). I might look after it and see what actually still works, didn't have the time to do so when I realized the heatpipe was leakying (it was only slightly) and only cleaned everything and threw the heatpipe in a sealed box and ordered a cheap (because badly scratched but otherwise good) used Fujitsu Lifebook, which is 2-3 times as heavy but at least the steel frame shouldn't fall apart that fast...
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 03, 2017, 02:39:29 pm
Yep, never touching a Pavillion (or more likely ANY HP) again .. for the foreseeable future I'll be sticking with what I **KNOW** is solidly built, "E" series Dells.

Seriously in a laptop I can't see the point in going new when these are available .. there's not much on the market faster, CPU's don't seem to have progressed much in the way of horsepower in the last 5 years, maybe they're slightly more power efficient, but I'm nearly always plugged in anyway.

And Graphics .. well unless you're gonna spend a fortune (and be tied to a power outlet anyway), laptops aren't really for gaming so who cares about the slightly more capable graphics.

Yep, you can get a quad core i7 E6530 with 16GB RAM and Nvidia NVS 5200M / Intel HD4000 (optimus) graphics for less than the cheapest new 15" HP .. it's gonna have WAY WAY WAY more horsepower, a better (1920x1080) screen, and likely outlast the HP by a factor of 3 because of the difference in build quality .. and they're fixable/expandable (and the bits/addons are hyper-available should you need/want them).
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: The PoorGuy on August 03, 2017, 03:06:25 pm
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Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: The PoorGuy on August 03, 2017, 03:14:39 pm
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Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 03, 2017, 03:38:51 pm
I think the Fujitsu Lifebook is probably comparable to your Dell.

It's a 3 year old device that was leased (seems to be more common for those things than purchase) and it has 24h warranty for the next year, so if it breaks they'll have to come over here the next day and fix it. Official support will at least go until 2023 and Fujitsu needs to announce the end of support 5 years before it ends when they decide to do that. That's probably why multiple generations of Fujitsu Lifebooks all look the same, share parts, and so on.
It's 14" (but also available in 13" and 15" - all the same except for case, lid and screen) and can take over 100Wh when you replace the CD-Player with the second battery. That's the reason I decided to go with that.

CPU is a dual core i5, but i'll replace that with a quad core i7. Those old business machines have socketed CPUs like desktops, really nice. (I will need to do a lot of CPU intense stuff on it from September onwards) But it's heavy and I'm doing a lot of cycling with it (don't have a car) and with the steep hills here it took some time getting used to that thing (After you getting used to it it isn't an issue really).

It was 250 incl. 1.5 years of 24h warranty because the lid is scratched. And it doesn't have a webcam and just 3G and not LTE, but that's fine for me. I have it for 6months now and hope this thing will serve me a few years. Just the fact that the parts seem to be 1/3 made in Germany 1/3 made in Japan and only 1/3 made in China shows that it's several leages above HP. But the prices of those Lifebooks new are insane (maybe that's why they're mostly getting leased). And it seems they aren't really ment for private people, most shops don't even sell them and a lot of the selling/leasing seems to go over Fujitsu directly and is for companys only. Spare parts are expensive from Fujitsu, but can be found used. Since it's rarely sold to consumers it's for sure not a consumer Notebook ;D

Edit: Fujitsu E744, forgot the name of it.



The powersupply is from 2016 and came with a HP Pavilion 17" Notebook. It's branded by HP but has a little "Mfr.Name: DELTA ELECTRONICS (JIANGSU) Ltd." Note on it.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 03, 2017, 04:23:57 pm
Yep very similar solid premium business class lappy that cost a fortune new but are now a steal :)

Some of the Thinkpads are also cut from the same cloth, but for some reason they always look a bit more "beat up" by the time they finish their business life.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 03, 2017, 04:59:40 pm
Yeah I had a Thinkpad T520 for work once (I didn't own it, it belonged to my employer) and it was really sturdy but already banged up when I got it. The Plastic of the Thinkpads does get quite ugly pretty fast. Thinkpads are real plasticbombers. But that Thinkpad was really slow with all the Software that was autostarting and taking up lots of ressources in the background (a lot of DRM stuff on some really expensive programmes which runs all the time, even if they aren't running), so I never enjoyed using it.
It had a proper keyboard. That's probably the biggest downside of the Lifebook, the keyboard isn't great.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: The PoorGuy on August 03, 2017, 05:23:28 pm
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Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 03, 2017, 05:29:39 pm
Yeah that's something else I love about the Dell E's .. proper classic keyboards, none of this 'chicklet/island' horror.
(not quite as "classic" as the D series Dells, but still very good positive feedback .. you don't hit stuff 'accidentally' by just resting your finger on it)

@ The PoorGuy

I think "E series" (for Dells) generally refers to one of the distinct 'series/families' of Latitude laptops:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Latitude
not so much the desktops .. the "E" in some of the Optiplex family came from the pentium/pentium dual core/core2 Intel CPU designation IIRC.

None of the Optiplex (AFAIK) actually had "E" in their model designations (at least not at the beginning of the model designation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_OptiPlex
but they were often advertised as having say an E4400 or say E4600 Core2Duo, or say an E5200 Pentium Dual Core

IIRC there were some Inspiron desktops with an "E" in the model number, but I don't **think** the "E" ever represented (or were known as) a 'series' or 'family'.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 03, 2017, 06:33:18 pm
My Lifebook belongs to the E Series as well, although it's a different brand ::)

Keyboard is the big downside here. However searching for 13"-14" Laptops with 100Wh and proper Quad-Cores there seems to be nothing besides the Lifebook. And I can live with the keyboard, I'm plugging in another one if I write more. Otherwise I'm missing some things to your Dell as well, I've only 1600x900 TN and obviously I need to upgrade the CPU.
But the FHD IPS Versions of the Lifebook are utterly expensive, at least the smaller ones. 15" is priced ok, but even a completely banged up 13" one with i3, 4gb 650 got sold on eBay. Probably only good to upgrade another laptop that's in good condition to FHD IPS. I guess that's just because there is no alternative if you want it small, powerfull with lots of capacity and some built quality.

1600x900 on 14" isn't much worse than 1920x1080 on 15" though and I actually like the TN Panel (although the colors are crap and max brightness isn't great), because the minimal brightness is superlow. I have dark background white text anyways and I can sit in a dark room and dimm it down all the way. I've never seen a backlight that can go lower without going out. I had to tape off the LEDs and and the Panel can't wake up on 1% brightness, not a big deal when there are brightness buttons for it.
And you can turn off the touchpad with a key, really nice. And it's done proper, so works in any OS. And last positive surprise is an awesome soundcard. The speakers are ok but headphone sound is amazing. Because the Laptop is available in different sizes and all have the same mainboard it's basically split in three parts and the soundcard makes up one sitting completely on it's own in the lower right corner. Basically like an external soundcard, connected to the main hardware by a longer cable which supplies power and the digital signal and digital to analog is done in this corner with empty space around it. Not sure if this was by design or a happy coincidence (there's probably no free space around it on the 13" version), but that doesn't really matter.
Those are the little things you only notice once you have it^^
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 03, 2017, 06:45:29 pm
The E6xx0's all pretty much came with 90Wh 9 cell batteries (though these were an option, most businesses bought them), and another 30Wh battery could go in the "E-Modular" optical bay ..  so up to 120Wh .. so similar to the lifebook I guess ?

One thing I did spot though is the lifebook optical bay modules included a "projector" option of all things :o
(never AFAIK an option on the Dell)
Although if I had to guess, I'd guess Fujitsu sold about 2 of those .. I'd be fairly certain businesses would want to use a more substancial projector than anything you're gonna get in the optical drive bay .. but who knows right :)

I agree on the resolution .. in fact I probably wouldn't want 1080 on anything smaller than 15.6, I may even go further and say 1600x900 may be better on 15.6 too .. I have to admit colour representation is pretty good once calibrated and video looks GREAT on these things, but I end up border line wanting to scale pretty much everything else.

Can't talk for the audio quality via headphones, haven't tried em yet .. speakers are slightly better than most cheap consumer grade laptops but not by much and still "tiny"..
One thing I DON'T like is the E6x20 and E6x30's have one of those damn combo headphone/mic jacks instead of separate ones .. Arrrgh!!! :(
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 04, 2017, 12:03:19 am
But are the small E6xx0's capable of a Quad-Core i7, I've only seen them with the Dual-Core one and never with a Quad? The "Q" in the Name is the most important thing on mobile Intel CPUs, everything else is just an desktop i3, even if it's called i5 or i7. (i7 M is a desktop i3 with all features and i5 M and i3 M have some things disabled.) At least for threaded work, the Quads are almost twice as fast there.

I never noticed that, might be cool for a dark room as well^^ Can't imagine it's really capable of more. Whaaaaat? 490 for this thing? Never mind...

Well video looks really great once you plug in your monitor here :D But I don't need it mobile so not an issue.

Yeah text on 1600x900 14" is already on the tiny side but I like it.

Same here for the speakers, headphone/mic are separate. And switching between jacks and onboard is done by the Bios so works in every OS without drivers and it's done for both jacks individually.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 04, 2017, 09:02:50 am
But are the small E6xx0's capable of a Quad-Core i7, I've only seen them with the Dual-Core one and never with a Quad? The "Q" in the Name is the most important thing on mobile Intel CPUs, everything else is just an desktop i3, even if it's called i5 or i7. (i7 M is a desktop i3 with all features and i5 M and i3 M have some things disabled.) At least for threaded work, the Quads are almost twice as fast there.

a) Yes, you can get quad core in most of the E6xx0 series .. like you said for the lifebook, the mobos are the same and socketed.
I mean here's a 13" quad
http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-3-Dell-Latitude-E6320-Core-i7-2620QM-2-4GHz-8GB-Win-7-Pro-64X-500-GB-HDD-/152568362540

and

b) The Q doesn't mean mobile (just means "quad") and the M does mean "Mobile" .. the M is not just a desktop i3, none of the i3's have Turbo-Boost or 6 to 8MB cache which is basically the real difference between i3 and i5/i7 (though there are other features too) .. the difference between i5 and i7 of the same family pretty much being just core frequency (clock speed) and cache size as both support turbo boost.

"M" models tend to have lower core frequencies than their desktop counterparts but can generally come close to matching them (when required) when using turbo boost (where available .. ie. not in an i3) .. I gather the stepping is usually different to.

Intel add to the confusion by having stupid model designation .. such as:-

Quote
The Core i7-6700 runs 4 cores at 3.4/4.0 GHz with 8MB cache for a Passmark score of 9,973. Its mobile counterpart, the Intel Core i7-6700HQ, comes in at 2.6/3.5GHz with 6MB of cache for a Passmark score of 8,001

So why call them both "6700" ::) .. this just makes the mobile CPU look weaker than what people perceive to be it's desktop 'counterpart' .. when really it's not an actual 'counterpart' it's a completely different spec CPU so they should never have confusingly called it "6700"

Really the mobile i3/i5/i7 don't have 'desktop counterparts' .. they are pretty much always a completely different spec .. the "M" just denotes that CPU as 'designed for mobile use' because of things like stepping.



None of what I said above changes the fact that like you said a lot of these i3/i5/i7's weren't manufactured on different production lines .. just sorted at the end by what they were capable of and what 'worked' and then labelled (and some features then intentionally disabled to make them fit a "model" label).

But it does mean any comparison between 'mobile' and 'desktop' CPU's is flawed comparison from the beginning because they're basically just labels to fit their marketing ;)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: murraymint on August 04, 2017, 09:50:10 am
just sorted at the end by what they were capable of and what 'worked' and then labelled

I'm all processored out from looking at the damn things now, but that's what I was beginning to suspect - as happens in other lines of manufacturing too.

BTW, I was checking out the i7 4600U you mentioned and I found one sitting in an HP Chromebox. That form factor will be interesting in the future as the processors start to get more efficient.
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 04, 2017, 10:35:06 am
The form factor (NUC ?) yeah :) .. but I have a MASSIVE anti-HP sentiment going on at present >:(

Though I'm a bit stumped at what anyone's liable to do with ChromeOS that really requires an i7 ???
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 04, 2017, 11:06:30 am
Well, good to know. Searching for one on the eBay.de site gave me nothing and ebay-kleinanzeigen as well. So I guess they're just rather uncommon here?

I never looked at stepping, Turbo or anything like that because that's something you can change anyways. At least on Windows there was a tool for everything, in Linux it might be harder. But flashing a Bios is an option as well. So for me it's cores and cache that matters. 99% of the Intel-CPUs are made out of either 2 cores 3MB or 2 cores 4MB modules (which is the same thing but one is cut down). And Quads are two modules combined. And then there are all these softwarefeatures that make them different.
I've not bothered playing around with that stuff o the Lifebook yet, but I've always played around with that on my PC (which has an AMD FX-6300 that clocks between 1.4 and 4.8GHz on all 6 cores according to the load and none of my GPUs ran with a factory Bios ::) Since I wanted my PC to be semi-passive cooled I always had to mod things anyways because stupid bios wouldn't allow the fan to be turned off at 20C coretemp).

An i7 with an U behind is even worse, that's an i3 throttled at 15W for me. You can't compare that to anything else that's called i7. Maybe it's half of an i7 throttled if you want to see it that way. If ChromeOS is one half of a real OS with some limitations, isn't it fitting?
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 04, 2017, 11:40:04 am
I'm not sure a U is"worse" .. it all depends on what you're priorities are ;)

And I doubt you'd be able to enable turbo-boost on an i3 because it's AFAIK not present.

But yeah as a quad core is basically just 2 dual cores stitched together on the same die, where the BIOS allows you to disable 2 cores I'd always go for the quad.

You can pretty much SEE they are just 2 dual cores stitched together on the same die (but with the same amount of shared cache) by simply looking at them:

Dual  core i7 M

(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB19QQJRpXXXXcVapXXq6xXFXXXa/D-origine-Intel-Core-font-b-I7-b-font-2620-M-4-M-Cache-2-7.jpg)

Quad core i7 QM

(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1xrWgKpXXXXanXXXXq6xXFXXXj/Core-font-b-i7-b-font-font-b-2670QM-b-font-2-2GHz-6M-Quad-Core.jpg)
Title: Re: Why Modern Electronics May Have Quit Working.
Post by: Timo on August 04, 2017, 01:26:26 pm
You can't enable Intels Turbo, but you can write yourself a script that clocks your CPU according to power consumption, temperature, cores used, ... like Intel does. At least on the AMD FX it's relativly easy, Intel seems to have a lot more locks in the way. Same for the TDP-Limit of the U series. Locking the TDP is rather easy.
Hyperthreading might be harder, but companies like VMWare have their own two threads per core software that runs on any CPU.
Intels Turbo programme might be more efficient (although their software features like Turbo, Hyperthreading and so on consume some CPU power as well, which is something most people don't realize because you can't see it in your taskmanager).

What Intel does is probably what Richard Stallmans nightmares had been back in the 80s, people get forced to buy another CPU for a different firmware setting.


You can pretty much SEE they are just 2 dual cores stitched together on the same die (but with the same amount of shared cache) by simply looking at them:
The Cache is doubled (although shared, dual 3 or 4MB, quad 6 or 8MB), the reason the Quad isn't twice as big is because there's only one iGPU on both. But the CPU part is doubled (and the cache connected).