Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: emegra on February 27, 2017, 07:08:21 am

Title: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on February 27, 2017, 07:08:21 am
Last week the missus decided she wanted a design cutter and bought herself a Cricut Explore and asked me if I could get it up and running on
her laptop currently running Peppermint 6

The device came boxed without a driver disc so I checked online first of all to see if it was possible to run this in Linux which as I expected wasn't

in fact not only was it not possible to run this in Linux it would only communicate with their web based software which means that in order to use your own machine you have to first register with the manufacturer give them your email address and other information, install malware (ie Windows & Flash) and have an active internet connection or the machine is useless.

Surely I thought there is other software I can use that can be installed natively on the laptop that doesn't require Flash or an internet connection but I was wrong, There is other software but the makers of this machine (Provocraft) sued them (Make The Cut) in 2012

So now we have a machine that's use is entirely at the mercy of the manufacturer who at any time can can stop supporting it and shut it down when they bring out a new model or stop supporting the operating system connected to it they apparently did this with mac users some years ago, the reply from  their help desk was we no longer support your OS buy another computer.

The worst part (for me at least) is when I suggested to the missus she boxed it back up and take it back and tell them the machine is useless because she can't use the software of her choice demand her money back or a different machine that will let her use whatever software she chooses, her answer was "but I like the online software it's easy to use" and hard as I tried to get through to her the sheer immorality of what they're doing and that they're holding her hostage her answer was "Well thats just the way it is"

 It's little wonder that's just the way it is when so many people just let these greedy morally bankrupt companies away with it and the sad part is we don't even have to protest or change the law all we have to do is say NO!



Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 27, 2017, 09:34:20 am
Yep it never fails to amaze me how some people are happy to accept this kind of tie in .. in fact I don't see it as "vendor tie in" as much as "ransomware".

Sorry Mrs Emegra, but by accepting this kind of ransomware you're not only harming yourself but the rest of us too .. and how do you know the software you get with the next one won't not only be morally justifiable but BETTER ?
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: scifidude79 on February 27, 2017, 10:24:34 am
Unfortunately, this kind of thinking is more commonplace than it should be, hence companies can get by with stuff like this.  People just think there's no other alternative to get what they want, so they accept things like this.  That's they way it is.  All it would take is a more sizeable section of the population taking a stand against hardware/software companies doing things like this to make them stop.  But, people accept it, so they can keep doing it.  ::)

Unfortunately, you have something else going against you too.  I know what those machines are (my mom has one) and they're specialized.  That means a smaller section of the population uses them, so there's no big push to make them Linux compatible or to develop better software.  If it was a printer, somebody would have made it work in Linux.  But, it's not, so no dice.  ::)
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on February 27, 2017, 02:23:50 pm
As a Linux user for some years now I have to accept there's some hardware just won't run on Linux that's just a fact of life and I can accept that, I have to accept that because I can't do anything about it, I can only try to avoid it wherever possible

consequently I tend to be selective with hardware, as scifidude said these are quite specialized devices and I'm not sure there are any that will run natively in Linux but I didn't buy this machine I didn't even know she ordered it, but what really annoys me is the fact that they can dictate what software I use and for how long I can use it, they can brick that machine anytime they like that's bordering on the criminal, if it's not illegal it damn well should be, they'll even sue anyone who dares to write alternative software to work with it

and If all that's not bad enough what really annoys me most is my missus is ok with that and so it seems are many other people who use this thing and sing it's praises

Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: scifidude79 on February 28, 2017, 09:32:16 am
Are there even any machines that perform the same function that work with Linux?  A lot of stuff for crafting works with Windows only or Windows and Mac. ::)  And, unfortunately, since most people don't care enough to not use it, they get away with it.

I feel (and I know others do too) your pain on the whole stuff not working with Linux thing.  But, we accept that.  I'm guessing your wife isn't so resolute on that one.  One of my more recently picked up hobbies is custom lightsaber props.  You can buy them assembled or do it yourself, lots of fun.  One company I buy stuff from makes a sound board that's only editable through a USB connection, and their software is only compatible with Windows or OSX.  It uses the HID driver in Windows, but I can't make it work with WINE.  However, fortunately, in this instance, that's not just how it is.  There are other sound boards, like one I installed recently, where you can change the sounds and configure a lot of other things using files on a microSD card.  It works great with Linux because all you do is copy and paste sound files to folders and you can change other parameters of the board by editing a configuration file, much like changing parameters of some stuff in Linux.  No software to use, other than a window manager and a text editor.  So, guess which boards I'll be using in the future.  ;)
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: VinDSL on February 28, 2017, 11:32:50 am
As a Linux user for some years now I have to accept there's some hardware just won't run on Linux that's just a fact of life and I can accept that, I have to accept that because I can't do anything about it, I can only try to avoid it wherever possible

If I can state the obvious ...  It just depends on the circumstances. 

I'm a winders hater from wayback, if you haven't figured that out by now.  But, I'll have to say, in certain circumstances, '10' has been very handy.

For instance, when I'm traveling around, using guest logins on various LANs, it takes a lot of extra steps to get a connection with Linux.  I'm used to the rigmarole, but it's rather embarrassing when you're surrounded by winders and mac users.

With '10', all you do is select a WAP, and Cortana notifies you that the router requires further information.  Click the balloon, a browser pops up with an auth screen, and you're in - bada bing, bada boom.

I avoid '10' as much as possible, but it's nice to have in a pinch.

Ideally, in my circumstances, I should carry three lappies - one for personal use - one for connecting to the web with no personal info on the drive - and one that never gets connected to the web.  Who has room for that, though ?

Location makes a diff, too.  If you don't want ppl spying on sensitive info, encrypt it, and use a hotspot, local library, or better yet, send it from a different state, as you're traveling about.

The way I get by is with a regular dual-boot Peppermint/winders lappy, a live USB stick, and a bootable USB stick with persistence.  Between the lot of them, I have all my bases covered, when I'm on the trot.  My LAN is a different matter, but I don't want to turn this into a diatribe.

I guess what I'm saying is, there's no reason to fight 'it'.  There's no dishonor.  Just hold your nose and think outside the box, a little ... 
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 28, 2017, 02:33:44 pm
Are there even any machines that perform the same function that work with Linux?

There are...
http://robocut.org/

In fact the software is in the repos .. and that page tells you which craft cutters are supported.



There's also
http://inkcut.sourceforge.net/

who's page also lists a ton of supported plotters/cutters.

Sadly the Cricut Explorer isn't one of them, it's listed (though misspelled) on page 8 of the cutters list as unsupported.
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 28, 2017, 02:46:19 pm
This would probably be the best place to find out more
http://www.inkscapecuttingdesign.com/smf/index.php
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on February 28, 2017, 03:23:43 pm
Quote
There are...
http://robocut.org/

In fact the software is in the repos .. and that page tells you which craft cutters are supported.

I can honestly say that has pissed me off even more if that's possible (I mean no offence to you Mark) first of all she's all in on this Cricut now she already bought a whole lot of cartridges and other accessories, believe me I've tried to get her to pack the lot up and flog what she can on ebay but that aint happening

I have already had a look at inkcut but the problem with Inkcut is it involves learning Inkscape she just wants drag and drop pre-made shapes/designs and cut nice and easy no effort required

To say I'm pissed off is the understatement of the century and it's not so much because it won't run in Linux that's just disappointing it's this being forced to use their crap  web based software that they control that they can change any time they like or even abandon any time they like, she is completely at their mercy and this is a company that clearly puts their customers a far distant second to their own interests.

I despise this kinda practice of preying on people that don't want to think for themselves or make any effort to learn anything new, I told her the best resource she has for shapes and designs is her own imagination but I get looked at like I'm a feckin alien

better stop here before my blood pressure goes through the roof

rant over

sorry guys


Graeme





Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 28, 2017, 04:32:50 pm
I have already had a look at inkcut but the problem with Inkcut is it involves learning Inkscape she just wants drag and drop pre-made shapes/designs and cut nice and easy no effort required

Does it though ? .. as far as I'm aware you can just import any svg into Inkscape and there are tons of those available online.

I fully understand where you're coming from though, I absolutely can't get my missus off Windows even though Linux would do EVERYTHING she requires ::)

There's a point at which you have to just bite your tongue and roll with the "easy" route ;)
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: scifidude79 on March 01, 2017, 12:07:30 am
Inkscape is easy and you can create limitless shapes with it.  Plus, as Mark said, there are SVGs available everywhere.

Are there even any machines that perform the same function that work with Linux?

There are...
http://robocut.org/

In fact the software is in the repos .. and that page tells you which craft cutters are supported.



There's also
http://inkcut.sourceforge.net/

who's page also lists a ton of supported plotters/cutters.

Sadly the Cricut Explorer isn't one of them, it's listed (though misspelled) on page 8 of the cutters list as unsupported.

Wow, that's cool.  I didn't even know this kind of stuff was Linux friendly.  But then, I don't use it myself.
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 01, 2017, 01:03:40 am
In all my rantiness in my last post I forgot to mention the link to inkscapecuttingdesign forum you posted is a really good site with some fantastic ideas and tutorials so thanks for that

getting back to inkcut unless I'm misunderstanding it the idea of inkcut is to allow you to cut shapes directly from Inkscape, unfortunately this is not possible with the Cricut as their makers (ProvoCraft) sue anyone who attempts that, they are control freaks and as far as I understand they already sued 2 companies who wrote software to connect with the Cricut (Make The Cut & Sure Cuts A Lot),

There's nothing to stop anyone designing in these programs or any other program including Inkscape but any work would then have to be imported into Cricuts web based design studio before it can be sent to the cutter

Again I might be misunderstanding this but didn't Microsoft lose a legal case some years ago that forced them to allow third party web browsers to run in Windows if I am understanding that correctly then I don't see much difference with what Microsoft were doing back then and what ProvoCraft are doing now



Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: AndyInMokum on March 01, 2017, 02:15:35 am
Again I might be misunderstanding this but didn't Microsoft lose a legal case some years ago that forced them to allow third party web browsers to run in Windows if I am understanding that correctly then I don't see much difference with what Microsoft were doing back then and what ProvoCraft are doing now

Good point, I doubt anything will be done about it though.  The defence would argue that ProvoCraft can package their product however they see fit.  They could also argue that providing Linux support, is not a financially viable option.
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 01, 2017, 02:29:24 am
Quote
They could also argue that providing Linux support, is not a financially viable option.

Yeah I get that Andy but I'm not talking about Linux support specifically, there are many hardware manufacturers who don't support Linux , but I've never heard of any other hardware device that blocks ANY software from connecting to it, they are effectively selling these devices while retaining ownership by forcing the user to be wholly dependent on them for it use, that is morally wrong and should be illegal



Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: AndyInMokum on March 01, 2017, 02:54:14 am
Quote
They could also argue that providing Linux support, is not a financially viable option.

Yeah I get that Andy but I'm not talking about Linux support specifically, there are many hardware manufacturers who don't support Linux , but I've never heard of any other hardware device that blocks ANY software from connecting to it, they are effectively selling these devices while retaining ownership by forcing the user to be wholly dependent on them for it use, that is morally wrong and should be illegal



Graeme

Yeah, it does smack of monopolisation and customer manipulation.  They've certainly got you by the short and curlies.  They'd find some way of weaseling out of operating  ethically.  In this day and age, moral integrity is no longer viewed as an asset to a company's credibility; more's the pity  :(.
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 01, 2017, 03:34:52 am
It's kinda like this

Imagine if Microsoft manufactured and sold printers that would only print documents created in or imported to MS Office 365





Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: AndyInMokum on March 01, 2017, 03:50:59 am
It's kinda like this

Imagine if Microsoft manufactured and sold printers that would only print documents created in or imported to MS Office 365





Graeme

Don't give 'em ideas  ;D!
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 01, 2017, 09:18:09 am
getting back to inkcut unless I'm misunderstanding it the idea of inkcut is to allow you to cut shapes directly from Inkscape

From what I'm reading it still may be possible if you can compile something called "libcutter" .. that said it seems a pointless exercise if Mrs Emegra is happy with what she has and doesn't want to change.
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: scifidude79 on March 01, 2017, 10:33:56 am
It's kinda like this

Imagine if Microsoft manufactured and sold printers that would only print documents created in or imported to MS Office 365





Graeme

Don't give 'em ideas  ;D!

Yeah, because you know they'd try it.  >:(
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 01, 2017, 11:32:40 am

Quote
From what I'm reading it still may be possible if you can compile something called "libcutter

Now you got me interested :),

as much as I despise this company and their practices it does look a decent piece of hardware and something I wouldn't mind using myself so long as I didn't have to use their software 


Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: cavy on March 01, 2017, 12:00:50 pm
I had to sort my fathers computer last week, having issues with his online accounts. Installed google chrome and got everything working, chromium was not quite cutting it...?

Scroll to the bottom of this page and have a laff at this ignorance  :(  http://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/security/browser-help   ???

Phoned their 'find out more' number and enquired what was going on. Wow, the BS was unreal, after I told them that the majority of the server are Linux and browser to browser contact has nothing to do with your operating system, (will stand to be corrected if that is not the case). They admitted explorer not their browser of choice, but was company policy.   :'(

Not bad as MS explorer 11 is riddled with vulnerabilities:  ;)   http://gizmodo.com/google-shames-microsoft-for-not-fixing-windows-10-brows-1792819255   ;)

C'est la vie...!
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: scifidude79 on March 01, 2017, 12:32:19 pm
So, that means that bank wouldn't even support Android, which is frickin' stupid given its widespread use and the popularity of mobile devices for everything.

Usually, though, if it accepts Firefox or Chrome in Win/Mac, it will work fine in Linux.  But, there are exceptions.  Chromium probably didn't work due to something proprietary that's missing from it.
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: murraymint on March 01, 2017, 01:07:58 pm
They've got their own banking app for Android or iPhone.
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 01, 2017, 01:28:35 pm

Quote
From what I'm reading it still may be possible if you can compile something called "libcutter

Now you got me interested :),

as much as I despise this company and their practices it does look a decent piece of hardware and something I wouldn't mind using myself so long as I didn't have to use their software 


Graeme

I just checked to see if libcutter from here:
https://github.com/vangdfang/libcutter
still compiles in Peppermint 7 .. and after sorting out quite a few dependencies .. IT DOES :)

Obviously I have no way of testing it .. in fact I'm not even 100% sure what you're supposed to do with it once compiled, but if you're truly interested I can try to figure it out ?
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 01, 2017, 01:36:31 pm
I had to sort my fathers computer last week, having issues with his online accounts. Installed google chrome and got everything working, chromium was not quite cutting it...?

Scroll to the bottom of this page and have a laff at this ignorance  :(  http://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/security/browser-help   ???

Phoned their 'find out more' number and enquired what was going on. Wow, the BS was unreal, after I told them that the majority of the server are Linux and browser to browser contact has nothing to do with your operating system, (will stand to be corrected if that is not the case). They admitted explorer not their browser of choice, but was company policy.   :'(

Not bad as MS explorer 11 is riddled with vulnerabilities:  ;)   http://gizmodo.com/google-shames-microsoft-for-not-fixing-windows-10-brows-1792819255   ;)

C'est la vie...!

Yeah I was warning people about Nationwide's idiotic policies back in 2010
http://linuxforums.org.uk/index.php?topic=3672.msg26832#msg26832

and later
http://linuxforums.org.uk/index.php?topic=5862.msg39592#msg39592
and
http://linuxforums.org.uk/index.php?topic=10549.msg79212#msg79212
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 01, 2017, 01:51:12 pm
Obviously I have no way of testing it .. in fact I'm not even 100% sure what you're supposed to do with it once compiled, but if you're truly interested I can try to figure it out ?


I'm very interested :)

remember if you make this work you could be hearing from ProvoCrafts lawyers  :o




Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 01, 2017, 02:56:35 pm
Not me .. I didn't write the library, nor is it commercial ;)
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: scifidude79 on March 01, 2017, 03:28:55 pm
They've got their own banking app for Android or iPhone.

Ah, one of those.  ::)
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 02, 2017, 04:17:04 am
I've been looking deeper into this, the laptop we're using is a Lenovo G555 running PM7, So to get this Cricut running I installed Win7 in a VM and spent the past 2 days downloading, installing & configuring Windows updates, but the bottom line is it's not gonna work it's just gonna be too slow, firstly the laptop only has 3 gb of RAM and is only capable of a mximum of 4gb, the minimun requirements for the Design Space software for this machine is 4gb, so I have to face facts it's not gonna work in a VM I just don't have the resources.

So I have 3 options
Option (1)
                  if libcutter get's it working in Linux via Inkscape/Inkcut then that would probably be the easiest solution

Option (2)
                  Give in to ProvoCraft and wipe the laptop completely and install Windows 7 bare metal

Option (3) (my preferred option)
                                                       Try again to talk her into flogging the lot on ebay and getting one of ones supported from here http://robocut.org (http://robocut.org) or http://inkcut.sourceforge.net/ (http://inkcut.sourceforge.net/) and running it natively in Linux, as far as design software is concerned if she can't get her head around Inkscape it's quite possible applications like Make The Cut, Sure Cuts A Lot or Easy Design Studio would run in Wine.



Graeme






Sadly the Cricut Explorer isn't one of them, it's listed (though misspelled) on page 8 of the cutters list as unsupported.


Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: VinDSL on March 02, 2017, 05:21:19 am
It's kinda like this

Imagine if Microsoft manufactured and sold printers that would only print documents created in or imported to MS Office 365

Don't give 'em ideas  ;D!

Bwahahahahaha !!!

First LoL of the day !

Thanks, for that ...   :D
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: VinDSL on March 02, 2017, 05:31:50 am
I've been looking deeper into this [...]

Resistance is futile.  Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.

Once a woman makes up her mind, she doesn't want to listen to any of your male logic bullshiz.

My suggestion is to give her the victory, and move on to the next battle ...  ;)

Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: zebedeeboss on March 02, 2017, 05:36:48 am
I've been looking deeper into this [...]

Resistance is futile.  Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.

Once a woman makes up her mind, she doesn't want to listen to any of your male logic bullshiz.

My suggestion is to give her the victory, and move on to the next battle ...  ;)

HaHaHa ain't that the truth
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 02, 2017, 07:05:02 am
Quote
My suggestion is to give her the victory, and move on to the next battle

I've no problems giving her the victory it ProvoCraft I grudge the victory to




Graeme
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: alynur on March 29, 2017, 03:49:31 pm
Hi emegra, sounds like you're fighting a losing battle. My advice would be, if the missus isn't hearing any thing you say, tell her she needs to buy a new windows laptop and be done with it. Life is just too short to sweat the small stuff and believe me, as far as the missus is concerned, this is really small stuff. 
Title: Re: Just the way it is
Post by: emegra on March 29, 2017, 04:04:49 pm
Thanks for the advice guys and of course you're right the trouble is these small things irritate me they always do in fact all forms of stupidity irritates me, but as it turned out she got the IT guy in her work to install Windows 10 on the laptop so she can succumb to Provocrafts blackmail and use the cutter




Graeme