Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => GNU/Linux Discussion => Topic started by: Elemec on August 24, 2016, 09:14:20 pm

Title: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: Elemec on August 24, 2016, 09:14:20 pm
I've been rather away from this forum, and well, even though i'm not necessarily using Peppermintos for now (Weird reasons for not to, but well, still love it as a "Deploy and use" distro for some situations) i would like to know what you all think about DEs and WMs you ever tried out, such as Mate, KDE, Openbox, I3wm, and of course a huge ammount of others i did not mention. Feel free to mention "Mix n matches" like PeppermintOS' "Xfce/lxde/mate/love"

I'm not entirely sure if is needed, but i think using the Spoiler would be good, as those "mini-reviews" of yours can be lengthy, just like mine!
DEs:
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)
KDE : Honestly, it's flashy, amazingly refined-looking and all, but i feel it's too heavy, but that might be because my computer is rather weak. It never really booted on post-instalations, but Mint KDE (17) worked, but i really don't feel like using KDE/Plasma, but i do give a thumbs up for the beautiful work that is K3B.

Unity : First DE i ever tried, on regular old Ubuntu, never really bothered me, although i didn't know how to make any customizations it served for the very first times. Honestly is not too bad looking, but well, heavy and not really good, but again, purely my opinion on that, not horrible, just a bit too "loaded".

Gnome 3/Shell : I have very mixed feelings around it, mostly because i tried it just a few times, on Fedora and on a "FrankenXubuntu" not bad, but not too good either.

XFCE : My ex-ex-favorite DE on my early "exploration" of the world of GNU/Linux, simply amazing, you could do so much customization, so much "power" over the looks, and well, at the time i was mostly a Window$ user, so having the possibility to change the "Menu" button was outstandingly mind blowing  :o

LXDE : My ex-favorite DE. At the start it felt horribly bad looking, like to the point it made me think Window$ XP had a good environment. But that changed soon after some weeks of trying out, turning out to be fast and reasonably easy to use, although difficulty gaps for things, and some weird "rare" bugs of doom, it felt at home pretty well, but something was missing, something to yell "This is not Window$, this is GNU/Linux!"

Mate : My all-time favorite DE. I ALWAYS liked it, even though before i thought on sticking more with XFCE/LXDE. It had a nostalgic, weird feeling, as i never used Linux before, but it felt very well. Editing the menu wasn't hard, changing themes felt very good and appealing, the overall aesthetic was beautiful, and it simply changed a lot of things to me, showed me a lot of things. Although i'm honestly not a super fan of Linux Mint, Mate felt very, very good, definetly worth to check out, in my opinion.

Cinnamon : Mixed mixed, that seems to be the idea i have of most environments. This looks good, and appeals after tweaked, but it has been pretty buggy on my end, and not exactly light-midweight, this might be because i never really tried to bother much with it, but well, my 2 cents, decent, although not my favorite pick, or a pick i would really use.
[close]

WMs :
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)
Openbox : This honestly was and still is one of my favorite ways to use linux. It takes sometime to setup, but it's very nice. Looks and performs well, gave me the bad habit of right clicking my panels for some decent time  :P but really, a nice addition to light setups imo, also, a classic, just like Mate, but in a different way.

Fluxbox : Although i liked tweaking Openbox better, Fluxbox is considerably easier, and has some nice features imo, which could be useful someday for me. really enjoy it, although i've hard some hard time finding appealing (to me) themes, it is definetly one of the most useful (Standalone) Window Managers imo.

I3WM : Other go-to for me, simply amazing once you get the hang of it. although i never used it the way it was suppossed to (Tiling), i found the "tabs" very good for what i do, the abillity to fullscreen in and out of anything is very nice as well, making playing videogames a bit easier, in case i really need to check time or so, rather than alt-tabbing and lagging a bit more. Performing very well, just like Fluxbox performed better than Openbox, this did a lot better than most DEs i have tried out, even though some came pretty close with my editions.
[close]
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: Bloch on August 25, 2016, 12:05:48 pm
Hi, Elemec.
I like xfce desktop and XFWN window manager. I am a huge fan of the xfce desktop. It's very lightweight, and if you spend the time you can make some very attractive desktops to work with.
Kde, Mate, Flubox, openbox...I don't no. I never used them. Only xfce and now...Lxde on Peppermint 7 and i love it!
Cheers.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 03:35:43 pm
I'm an unashamed G3 fanboi.  When I'm testing the Ubu dev branch, that's the DE I prefer, i.e. Gnome-Shell.

In defense of G3, I feel compelled to inform others that Unity is not a DE.  Unity is a simply a Compiz plugin for G3/Gnome-Shell.

I don't dislike Unity.  As a matter of fact, I defended it in the Ubu forums for a couple of years, when it was first released.

Everyone was complaining about their inability to customize Unity.  Nonsense ! 

Since Unity is G3 + Compiz, all one needs to do is dual-boot the Gnome Shell and customize it.   G3 and Unity share the same core files.

Anyway, I prefer to use the real thing (G3), not the Compiz hack (Unity).

The only thing I miss in Peppermint is the G3 hot-corner feature.   I've actually been haxoring a 'xfce4-panel' hot-corner plugin. 

LoL !   ;D
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: scifidude79 on August 25, 2016, 04:40:48 pm
Peppermint desktop.  Can't really call it LXDE or XFCE, since it's neither.  It uses bits from LXDE, XFCE, Gnome and MATE.  I think it all works great together, better than the desktops from which the bits come.

As for more mainstream desktops, I like XFCE.  If not for Peppermint, I'd probably be running Xububtu or Mint XFCE.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: perknh on August 25, 2016, 05:33:24 pm
If not for Peppermint, I'd probably be running Xububtu or Mint XFCE.

I think I'd would be too, or maybe SolydX.  It's the community that keeps me here, not so much our DEs.  That said, I really like our DEs.  I'm particularly fond of Peppermint's Xfce and LXDE DEs.

I have to say that Manjaro's Deepin DE is interesting.  My problem with it is that I'm not well versed with Arch commands for its terminal, and I like, and feel comfortable with, the Debian/Ubuntu style of apt-get commands. 

Peppermint always has very user-friendly DE.  :)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 06:06:09 pm
The only thing I miss in Peppermint is the G3 hot-corner feature.   I've actually been haxoring a 'xfce4-panel' hot-corner plugin. 

I guess there's no reason to reinvent the 'hot-corner' wheel, eh what ?   8)



Peppermint 7 - 'xfce4-hotcorner-plugin' - User Settings GUI

(http://vindsl.com/images/VinDSL_2016-08-25_14:35:01.png)



'xfdashboard' - Gnome-Shell like Dashboard for Xfce4

(http://vindsl.com/images/VinDSL_2016-08-25_14:58:14.png)



'xfdashboard' - Integrated Whisker Menu Apps Feature

(http://vindsl.com/images/VinDSL_2016-08-25_20:36:49.png)



'xfdashboard' - Quicklaunch for Favourites Feature

(http://vindsl.com/images/VinDSL_2016-08-26_22:12:33.png)



'xfdashboard' - Xfdashboard-dark Theme

(http://vindsl.com/images/VinDSL_2016-08-31_00:46:25.png)


Gotta love Peppermint !!!   :D
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: AndyInMokum on August 25, 2016, 06:17:52 pm
Your hot corners haxor is great.  It was one of the things I found really useful in Cinnamon  ;)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 25, 2016, 06:29:06 pm
I'd put the xfdasboard in the development PPA ages ago....
https://launchpad.net/~peppermintos/+archive/ubuntu/p7-dev
I thought about adding it to PM7 but I think we decided against it during the dev process IIRC.

for simple hotcorners, there's also the brightside package, which has a few predefined actions to choose from or you can add custom actions
http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2015/03/enable-hot-corners-xfce-desktop/

(https://i.imgur.com/vH1tiFe.png)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: zebedeeboss on August 25, 2016, 06:30:14 pm
What's the difference between Hot Corners and XFdashboard  or are they one and the same?

Oh and On Topic - Peppermint DE is the Best - A perfect Blend.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 06:30:52 pm
Your hot corners haxor is great.  It was one of the things I found really useful in Cinnamon  ;)

Creds goes to Brian Hsu, over on GitHub. 

LINK:  https://github.com/brianhsu/xfce4-hotcorner-plugin

I just had to find a way to shoehorn it into Peppermint 7. 

That's part and parcel to the 'Peppermint Ethos', yes ?   ;D
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: AndyInMokum on August 25, 2016, 06:43:32 pm
I think I'm going to have to compile that and have a play around, thanks John  ;)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 25, 2016, 06:44:36 pm
What's the difference between Hot Corners and XFdashboard  or are they one and the same?

The XFDashboard is just what it says, a dashboard (similar to the G3 dashboard but simpler) for Xfce.

Hotcorners are just actions that get carried out when you shove your cursor into a screen corner .. if you choose, you can have one of the hotcorners open the xfdashboard (as happens in G3), but they're not the same thing.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 06:47:02 pm
What's the difference between Hot Corners and XFdashboard  or are they one and the same?

Hot Corners is the GUI interface, e.g. the settings CP.  Most features are included by default.

XFdashboard needs to the added separately, if you want to mimic the G3 'dashboard' feature (pictured above)'.

Hot Corners, itself, is lightweight.  XFdashboard adds quite a few depends, by necessity.

Actually, it's a good idea to separate the two packages.  Some G3 users hate 'hot-corners', and look for ways to disable it.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 06:48:59 pm
What's the difference between Hot Corners and XFdashboard [...]

Heh!  We were typing at the same time ...   :D
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 06:53:59 pm
I'd put the xfdasboard in the development PPA ages ago....
https://launchpad.net/~peppermintos/+archive/ubuntu/p7-dev
I thought about adding it to PM7 but I think we decided against it during the dev process IIRC.

for simple hotcorners, there's also the brightside package, which has a few predefined actions to choose from or you can add custom actions
http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2015/03/enable-hot-corners-xfce-desktop/

Yeah, there are a few ways to implement hot corners.

I was going to roll my own, but then I started thinking about Conky, and changed my mind.  LoL !   :D

You can see what that turned into ...
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 07:03:24 pm
I think I'm going to have to compile that and have a play around, thanks John  ;)

Welcome, Andy !  It does what I want and need.

Sometimes I get manic and start dancing on the keyboard when I'm coding.  I'll have 20-30 terminals open, web pages, Pluma, et cetera.

I'll go eat a sandwich, or whatevs, and when I return I can't remember which window had what in it.

Drives me crazy, wasting time trying to find out where I left off !!!  Makes me lose my train of thought.

Invariably, I'll close something I shouldn't have, and I lose the work I did.  Sometimes this works in my favor, sometimes not.

Anyway, Hsu's hot corner hack is just what the doctor ordered ...   ;)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 25, 2016, 11:51:38 pm
~ cool   

I just noticed, you can directly access Whisker Menu (including search) by simply clicking a button in Xfdashboard.

I added a screenie here (searching for 'screen'):  https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php?topic=4177.msg41691#msg41691
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 26, 2016, 06:37:51 pm
No need to compile xfce4-hotcorner-plugin and/or xfdashboard .. they are now in the default p7-release PPA

All you now need to do is:
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get update
then:
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install xfce4-hotcorner-plugin xfdashboard
then add the "HotCorner" panel applet and use its "Properties" to set one of the hotcorners to trigger "Xfdashboard"

I also changed the panel tray icon for it to better match the other black/white ones.

FYI - you can install them separately if you don't want both.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 26, 2016, 08:00:23 pm
Good job !!!   :)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 27, 2016, 01:08:08 am
WoW !

Last night, I discovered that you can access Whisker Menu directly from Xfdashboard, with the click of a button.

Tonight, I was playing around with Xfdashboard and discovered I can drag applications from the integrated Whisker Menu and pin/copy them to the Dash (left-side panel).  G3 calls these 'Favorites', i.e. you don't need to hunt for them in Whisker Menu.

Not only that, but you can drag n' drop windows from one workplace to another in the Workspace List (right-side panel).

Amazing !!!   8)

EDIT

I'll add a screenie of that too:  https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php?topic=4177.msg41691#msg41691
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 31, 2016, 03:51:46 am
I keep finding more features, every time I play around with 'Xfdashboard'.  This time it's themes ...

Added a screenie (Dark Theme):  https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,4177.msg41691.html#msg41691

Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on August 31, 2016, 07:30:04 am
Brilliant .. I'd missed the xfdashboard-settings too and the colouring was the only thing annoying me about it .. MUCH better now :)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 31, 2016, 01:51:57 pm
It's the gift that keeps on giving.  LoL !  :D

They did a great job on these plugins !

I've gained a whole new appreciation for the Xfce4 panel.

Good choice !   ;)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on August 31, 2016, 02:02:21 pm
BTW, the icons on the 'desktop switcher panel' (right-side) in 'xfdashboard' look better with this 'xfdesktop-dark' theme.

The low-res icons in the 'desktop switcher panel' were hideously large with the default theme.

I was actually surfing around the web, looking for a hack, when I discovered the alt themes in 'xfdashboard-settings'.   :)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: perknh on September 01, 2016, 03:41:13 pm

Sometimes I get manic and start dancing on the keyboard when I'm coding.  I'll have 20-30 terminals open, web pages, Pluma, et cetera...I'll go eat a sandwich, or whatevs, and when I return I can't remember which window had what in it...Drives me crazy, wasting time trying to find out where I left off !!!  Makes me lose my train of thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYodWEKCuGg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYodWEKCuGg)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on September 01, 2016, 08:28:04 pm
LeL !   ;D
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on September 04, 2016, 07:51:54 pm
The OP poisoned the well ...   :D

After fixing the desktop notifications in Thunderbird, I couldn't think of another thing to tweak in P7.  It's perfect !

Ubu-Gnome is starting to bore me, sooooo I wiped it off the SDD and installed openSUSE 42 w/KDE, in its place.  Actually, I prefer to install Ubu Unity first, then add GS to it afterwards.

LoL !  I haven't used openSUSE/KDE in 10 years or more.  It's got as much kludge now as winders 10, and takes almost as long to install.  The iso is 4.5GB - no kidding.

Guess I'll travel down memory lane for a few days, and see if they've come up with any innovations.  Pretty much looks like the same ol', same ol', so far ...
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 04, 2016, 08:41:51 pm
It was YaST/2 that drove me to Ubuntu/Synapic :)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on September 04, 2016, 09:13:15 pm
Yeah, Plasma, so called, is why I quit using it years ago.  I like a clean desktop, and Plasma kept coming back like a virus.

Plus, I spent a lot of time haxoring my openSUSE install.  I had it setup so I could run GNOME and KDE in two different windows, at the same time - and switch back n' forth between them at the press of a button, e.g. no logout required.  They ran simultaneously, like running two computers and using a KVM switch.

Heh!  It took a long time to figure that out and, of course, I didn't document how I did it.  I figured it would survive an upgrade, but it didn't.   And, I couldn't replicate the hack on the new ver. :P 

That soured me on openSUSE, and Plasma put me over the top ...

Only reason I can see myself leaving it on the drive is, very occasionally I'll read about a program that sounds useful, only to find out that it requires a ton of KDE depends.  I can't think of any proggie in particular, at the moment, but I know I've run across the situation in the past.

Anyway, I'll see how it goes.  It's no better or worse than fiddling with winders, I suppose.   ::)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 04, 2016, 09:59:19 pm
It's no better or worse than fiddling with winders, I suppose.   ::)

Ouch :))
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 09, 2016, 08:49:21 am
Does it bother you that the hotcorner/xfdashboard combo opens xfdashboard when you go to your hotcorner but the only way to close xfdashboard is to either select something or hit "Esc" ?
(it does me ::))

Wouldn't it be nice if the hotcorner "toggled" xfdashboard open/close ?

Okay here's how.....

Run:
Code: [Select]
sudo pluma /usr/sbin/xfdashboard
when a BLANK file opens make it read
Code: [Select]
#!/bin/bash
pidof  xfdashboard >/dev/null
if [[ $? -ne 0 ]] ; then
        /usr/bin/xfdashboard &
else
        /usr/bin/xfdashboard -q &
fi
SAVE the file and exit pluma

make it executable
Code: [Select]
sudo chmod +x /usr/sbin/xfdashboard
Now in the xfdashboard panel plugin preferences, make sure there's NO tick in "Disable when active window is full screen"
now your xfdashboard hotcorner will open xfdashboard, and close it again if you revisit it whilst xfdashboard is open.



To undo
Code: [Select]
sudo rm -v /usr/sbin/xfdashboard
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: AndyInMokum on September 09, 2016, 09:12:08 am
Does it bother you that the hotcorner/xfdashboard combo opens xfdashboard when you go to your hotcorner but the only way to close xfdashboard is to either select something or hit "Esc" ?
(it does me ::))

Wouldn't it be nice if the hotcorner "toggled" xfdashboard open/close ?
Yeah, that's a lot more convenient - thanks  ;).
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 09, 2016, 10:32:31 am
NP .. it was driving me nutz only opening not closing ???
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on September 09, 2016, 06:50:11 pm
Interesting !

The only thing that really annoys me, with xfdashboard, is the desktop switcher panel. 

In (the real) G3 dashboard, the thumbnails display the contents of all desktops, not just the one that is focused, and icons for the rest of them.

That's what drives ME crazy ! Other than that, it's a pretty good imitation of the real thing IMO -- and I've been using GS for years.

Anyway, I'll try your haxor.  It's very creative !  You should submit a pull on GitHub ...   8)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: mracz on September 11, 2016, 05:24:00 am
Guys,  IMHO xfdashboard and hot corners made a defining move forward in history of xfce  (and Peppermint). This is one of the most important developments I experienced here. Thank you.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: VinDSL on September 11, 2016, 10:43:25 am
Guys,  IMHO xfdashboard and hot corners made a defining move forward in history of xfce  (and Peppermint). This is one of the most important developments I experienced here. Thank you.

Great add-ons, aren't they ?

There are other add-ons available too, but those were the crème de la crème !   ;)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on September 11, 2016, 12:04:06 pm
You're most welcome mracz :)
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: Kyle on September 19, 2016, 02:06:38 pm
I only use LXDE, or a mixture of XFCE/LXDE like Peppermint offers... I prefer it for it's lightweight but still semi-modern appearance. I prefer the simple appearance as well. As long as you put a good theme on it, you hardly notice that it's a basic/lightweight DE. For a window manager, I use Openbox... I don't really have a reason for it, other than it just seems to work out of the box really nicely and I never had any issues with it.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: rickc on March 17, 2017, 08:16:59 am
Does it bother you that the hotcorner/xfdashboard combo opens xfdashboard when you go to your hotcorner but the only way to close xfdashboard is to either select something or hit "Esc" ?
(it does me ::))

Wouldn't it be nice if the hotcorner "toggled" xfdashboard open/close ?

Thanks! That's really helpful

I love gnome3 but have a few issues - Ubuntu Gnome doesn't have a community like this, and feels a bit soulless. There's no OS specific themes etc, and changing shell etc is a faff for the average user.

Loving the speed and stability of P7.   I didn't like Whiskermenu at first but got used to it.

xfdashboard has given me back much of what I liked best about Gnome 3.  I wouldn't be without hot corners now.

Any advice appreciated though on my current frustration.....

To save me using the menu at all, I'm also using conky.  Ice remains a completely cool thing, but although you can add your ice items to conky, you don't get the right icon.

But do I need conky? When I open xfdashboard, there's a panel.  But I see no option to add to or customize it?  I've googled it but there doesn't seem to be much about how to get the best of out it.

Cheers

Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: perknh on March 17, 2017, 08:42:10 am
I only use LXDE, or a mixture of XFCE/LXDE like Peppermint offers... I prefer it for it's lightweight but still semi-modern appearance. I prefer the simple appearance as well. As long as you put a good theme on it, you hardly notice that it's a basic/lightweight DE. For a window manager, I use Openbox... I don't really have a reason for it, other than it just seems to work out of the box really nicely and I never had any issues with it.

Those are my favorites too --Xfce, LXDE, and Openbox (Crunchbang-style).  Attractive as I consider Unity's UI/DE to be, I've always experienced issues with it.  I've never quite connected with KDE, Cinnamon, or MATE.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 17, 2017, 03:03:53 pm
Quote
To save me using the menu at all, I'm also using conky.  Ice remains a completely cool thing, but although you can add your ice items to conky, you don't get the right icon.

But do I need conky? When I open xfdashboard, there's a panel.  But I see no option to add to or customize it?  I've googled it but there doesn't seem to be much about how to get the best of out it.

Are you actually talking about "conky", or do you mean "docky" or "plank", or "cairo-dock" ?



Is the xfdashboard panel not like the gnome/unity panel .. you open an app and it displays on the panel, you then right click it on the ppanel and choose sommat like "pin to panel" ?

It's been a while since I used xfdashboard
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: cavy on March 29, 2017, 08:37:11 am
Quote
I've been rather away from this forum, and well, even though i'm not necessarily using Peppermintos for now (Weird reasons for not to, but well, still love it as a "Deploy and use" distro for some situations) i would like to know what you all think about DEs and WMs you ever tried out, such as Mate, KDE, Openbox, I3wm, and of course a huge ammount of others i did not mention. Feel free to mention "Mix n matches" like PeppermintOS' "Xfce/lxde/mate/love"

I came across your question the other day. When I discovered Peppermint-5, its been a no-brainer, since.

Here are my personal observations: https://sites.google.com/site/myonlinehousekeeping/home/peppermint-7 and reasons why.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 29, 2017, 09:03:59 am
Nice observations cavy :)

In fact a nice site all round.
Title: Re: Your opinion on DEs and WMs
Post by: cavy on March 29, 2017, 12:48:47 pm
Quote
Nice observations cavy :)

In fact a nice site all round.

Cheers fella  :D