Peppermint OS

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Capivara on February 10, 2016, 11:41:00 pm

Title: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: Capivara on February 10, 2016, 11:41:00 pm
All over the news the past few days: http://bgr.com/2016/02/10/windows-10-spying-investigation/

The fact that Windows 10 is a real chatterbox to the outside world is hardly news nor a secret. You agree to this by signing the EULA.

Plugging in a PC into an oldfashioned hub with Wireshark running didn't leave much to my imagination. I never went as far as the researcher mentioned in the article above though. I just went back to Windows 7, typed "Too many privacy concerns" into the "Why?" field and went on with my life. Windows 7 is gone too now, replaced by Linux.

Questions remain. Is it really necessary to contact 51 Microsoft IP addresses 5508 times within 8 hours in order to (Quote Microsoft) "make the experience better for everyone"?
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: AndyInMokum on February 11, 2016, 12:09:10 am
All over the news the past few days: http://bgr.com/2016/02/10/windows-10-spying-investigation/

The fact that Windows 10 is a real chatterbox to the outside world is hardly news nor a secret. You agree to this by signing the EULA.

Plugging in a PC into an oldfashioned hub with Wireshark running didn't leave much to my imagination. I never went as far as the researcher mentioned in the article above though. I just went back to Windows 7, typed "Too many privacy concerns" into the "Why?" field and went on with my life. Windows 7 is gone too now, replaced by Linux.

Questions remain. Is it really necessary to contact 51 Microsoft IP addresses 5508 times within 8 hours in order to (Quote Microsoft) "make the experience better for everyone"?
You know what leaves me bewildered?  I can't get my head around how businesses are going to accept the terms of the current Windows 10 EULA.  Are Microsoft relying on their existing customer's apathy towards changing systems see them through?  Or, are they going to offer a different EULA for the enterprise version of Window 10?  Either way, I can't see a mass exodus to RedHat, Suse or Ubuntu for Enterprise.  Although I'm sure these will benefit from Windows 10's unpopularity.  Honestly, I just don't get Microsoft's strategy in regards to the enterprise side of things  :-\.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: emegra on February 11, 2016, 01:11:44 am
Quote
You know what leaves me bewildered?  I can't get my head around how businesses are going to accept the terms of the current Windows 10 EULA.

 I've wondered about that as well ie my missus works for a private school, which runs Windows Server, and the holds quite a bit of sensitive information not only about the pupils but the parents as well. if I was one of these parents I would definitely have concerns regarding privacy



Graeme
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: GNULINUX on February 11, 2016, 02:15:51 am
Another article (http://www.techworm.net/2016/02/windows-10-spies-disabling-tracking-installing-anti-spying-app.html) about the same spying/tracking..

Quote from: Myself
Nothing new... Windows 10 is made for spying/tracking! Everyone who does his own research knows this...
Just use CurrPorts (http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/cports.html) or Wireshark (https://www.wireshark.org/) and be amazed about all those "random" connections!
Even if you manage to disable everything, M$ just sneaks it back in via the automatic (mandatory) updates!

There's no use in fighting your own OS, accept it or change OS...  8)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: PCNetSpec on February 11, 2016, 03:09:02 am
(Quote Microsoft) "make the experience better for everyone"?

LOL :)) .. yeah right, that's why they're doing it.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: Capivara on February 11, 2016, 04:09:17 am
You know what leaves me bewildered?  I can't get my head around how businesses are going to accept the terms of the current Windows 10 EULA..

Did they read it? If Yes, did they understand it? Just mentioning two possible reasons....
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: AndyInMokum on February 11, 2016, 08:14:13 am
You know what leaves me bewildered?  I can't get my head around how businesses are going to accept the terms of the current Windows 10 EULA..

Did they read it? If Yes, did they understand it? Just mentioning two possible reasons....
You'd expect them to.  I know I would if I was a small to medium sized business.  I would want to know what I was getting into before parting with one cent towards Microsoft's exorbitant license fees.  If I were a large business, I'd expect, my very expensive corporate legal team to report back to the board in detail.  I would want the board of directors to be quite sure of the contract's contents, the company's responsibilities and the penalties for breaking it.  As I said, it leaves me bewildered to what Microsoft are playing at and what their goals are.  I just can't get my head around it  :-\.   
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: GNULINUX on February 11, 2016, 03:26:56 pm
Seems like the original research (https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/835741) is deleted/taken down.
You can find the "deleted" post here (https://archive.is/QFL8e), happy reading!  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: scifidude79 on February 13, 2016, 06:56:11 pm
Questions remain. Is it really necessary to contact 51 Microsoft IP addresses 5508 times within 8 hours in order to (Quote Microsoft) "make the experience better for everyone"?

No, it just makes the experience better for Microsoft, the FBI and the NSA.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: perknh on March 10, 2017, 11:54:08 am
(Quote Microsoft) "make the experience better for everyone"?

LOL :)) .. yeah right, that's why they're doing it.

Windows 10 - Just when you thought Microsoft couldn't get more annoying, THIS happens

By AARON BROWN (http://www.express.co.uk/journalist/122343/Aaron-Brown)

Quote
MICROSOFT is now displaying pop-up advertisements for its online storage solution, OneDrive, inside your files and folder windows in Windows 10, a new report has claimed. --Aaron Brown

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/777050/Windows-10-Free-Download-Adverts (http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/777050/Windows-10-Free-Download-Adverts)

In case you didn't think this was possible, it sounds as if Windows 10 is still finding ways to get worse and worse.  Windows, apparently, is now advertising one of its ways to spy on you more. ::)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: Timo on March 10, 2017, 12:46:26 pm
Win7 already had pop-ups for Win10, as long as they don't switch the "X" and "Buy" buttons one day... How long do you think it takes for this to happen? :D
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: perknh on March 10, 2017, 02:01:08 pm
Win7 already had pop-ups for Win10, as long as they don't switch the "X" and "Buy" buttons one day... How long do you think it takes for this to happen? :D

Hi Timo,

You're more on target than you may think.  I heard that months ago, while Windows 10 was still free for the able-bodied, people would x-out the free Windows 10 Upgrade offer.  What these people didn't realize was that x-ing out the offer triggered the upgrade process to begin.  In other words, you were supposed to look at that stupid ad for Windows 10 all of the time, or x it out and install it.  Your choice was between bad or worse. 

Believe it or not, you can still get Windows 10 for free if you use special assistive technologies of some sort.  Yeah, Windows 10 for the disabled is offered here (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/accessibility/windows10upgrade) at no cost.  Although I can't rattle off the names of the Linux distributions which assist the disabled, they do exist.  So depending on special assistive technologies from Windows in not necessary for anyone today.  What a curse it would be if the disabled had Windows 10 as their one and only option.  Fortunately, that is not the case.

I don't trust Windows' cloud.  I don't even know if you're able to encrypt your data in OneDrive.  I've always disabled OneDrive storage in Windows 8.1 and 10 shortly after installation. :-\

perknh
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: Timo on March 10, 2017, 04:56:04 pm
What these people didn't realize was that x-ing out the offer triggered the upgrade process to begin.  In other words, you were supposed to look at that stupid ad for Windows 10 all of the time, or x it out and install it.  Your choice was between bad or worse.
The proper way to close it was through the taskmanager ;) I did that anyways because the pop-up would just reappear after half an hour if you only clicked the X. But once the process was killed it was silent. Would be interesting to know if the OneDrive ad is an additional process or if they really put it into the explorer.

I switched to Linux before things went to crazy, according to the registration date in this forum I did my first Linux install a year and six days ago. OVER A YEAR USING LINUX, I'm still using Windows sometimes (at least only 7, I've never done a single keystroke on a Win10 machine and since I've red the Win10 EULA I'm doing my best to keep it this way) but I really hate it if I have to boot win7... I never liked it, but XP wasn't an option. Until I installed P6, which felt a bit like the better XP.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 10, 2017, 05:29:48 pm
Happy Linux birthday Timo :)

Here, have one on us...

(https://www.midvalleywine.com/images/sites/midvalleywine/labels/hiram-walker-hiram-walker-peppermint-schnapps-90-proof_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: perknh on March 10, 2017, 05:49:45 pm
Happy Linux birthday Timo :)

Wow!  How time flies?  Congratulations for completing your first year with Peppermint.  You don't have to toss out Windows 7.  If you feel comfortable running Windows 7 and Peppermint 6 together, why not continue to do so?  I started here with Peppermint 3 on a thumb drive while running Windows Vista. 

We're glad you're with us, Timo.  Congratulations!!!  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: Timo on March 11, 2017, 03:26:16 am
Thanks, always nice to find a proper reason to drink on a weekend ;D
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: zebedeeboss on March 11, 2017, 03:49:01 am
"MICROSOFT is now displaying pop-up advertisements for its online storage solution, OneDrive, inside your files and folder windows in Windows 10, a new report has claimed. --Aaron BrownAARON BROWN"

I regularly still use windows 10 and I have NEVER seen an advert anywhere in windows.  Start Menu folders or where ever.   They did try it once in the start menu but I toggled the switch off.

Regards Zeb...
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: perknh on March 11, 2017, 06:40:39 am
Thanks, always nice to find a proper reason to drink on a weekend ;D

Shame on me for not having a bottle of Peppermint Schnapps is the cupboard.  I'll see what I can do about that. ;)

I regularly still use windows 10 and I have NEVER seen an advert anywhere in windows.  Start Menu folders or where ever.   They did try it once in the start menu but I toggled the switch off.

Assuming the article is factual, perhaps you've done well and toggled off as many PITA notifications from Windows as possible.  My question to you is how to like Windows 10?  It's been out awhile now.  I looked at it and wasn't too fond of it.  Honestly, I like the look of Windows 8.1 much better than Windows 10.  This said, I think Windows Defender of Windows 10 is considerably stronger than the Windows Defender of Windows 8.1, but, since I hate AVs, impressive as the new Windows Defender is, I'd rather live without it.  I found that if I used a local account, uninstalled every possible program that was uninstallable, amped up Windows Defender to its highest possible settings, enabled the disablement of OneDrive, changed Data Execution Prevention to include all programs, ignored Cortana, and squinted my eyes a little in order to see the screen, then Windows 10 became sufferable.  But, what do you think?  Does it grow on you over time?  It's probably the least private but most secure Windows OS there is.  Chances are you've never encountered a virus with it, I bet.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: scifidude79 on March 11, 2017, 06:59:36 am
(Quote Microsoft) "make the experience better for everyone"?

LOL :)) .. yeah right, that's why they're doing it.

Windows 10 - Just when you thought Microsoft couldn't get more annoying, THIS happens

By AARON BROWN (http://www.express.co.uk/journalist/122343/Aaron-Brown)

Quote
MICROSOFT is now displaying pop-up advertisements for its online storage solution, OneDrive, inside your files and folder windows in Windows 10, a new report has claimed. --Aaron Brown

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/777050/Windows-10-Free-Download-Adverts (http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/777050/Windows-10-Free-Download-Adverts)

In case you didn't think this was possible, it sounds as if Windows 10 is still finding ways to get worse and worse.  Windows, apparently, is now advertising one of its ways to spy on you more. ::)

Ha!  I had a brief temptation to go back to Windblows.  But, like a smoker quitting, I rode the wave and didn't cave.  (it helped that I bought a STeam Machine to take my mind off the cravings)  Seeing that they're still finding lows to sink to makes me think I definitely made the right choice.  8)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: zebedeeboss on March 11, 2017, 07:06:14 am

I regularly still use windows 10 and I have NEVER seen an advert anywhere in windows.  Start Menu folders or where ever.   They did try it once in the start menu but I toggled the switch off.

Assuming the article is factual, perhaps you've done well and toggled off as many PITA notifications from Windows as possible.  My question to you is how to like Windows 10?  It's been out awhile now.  I looked at it and wasn't too fond of it.  Honestly, I like the look of Windows 8.1 much better than Windows 10.  This said, I think Windows Defender of Windows 10 is considerably stronger than the Windows Defender of Windows 8.1, but, since I hate AVs, impressive as the new Windows Defender is, I'd rather live without it.  I found that if I used a local account, uninstalled every possible program that was uninstallable, amped up Windows Defender to its highest possible settings, enabled the disablement of OneDrive, changed Data Execution Prevention to include all programs, ignored Cortana, and squinted my eyes a little in order to see the screen, then Windows 10 became sufferable.  But, what do you think?  Does it grow on you over time?  It's probably the least private but most secure Windows OS there is.  Chances are you've never encountered a virus with it, I bet.

I find it ok perknh.  It works, it does what it is supposed to and for me, it does it just as quickly, as Linux. Yes the updates are ponderous and slow (compared to Linux) and being forced into rebooting is a monumental PITA, but it is what it is, deal with it.  95%  Shedloads of people (the majority I would suggest) use windows and always will.
I have never a had a virus on any version of windows I have used (that I know of). Just lucky I guess or careful where I went and what I downloaded (Probably also due to my re-installing it every 6 months {my version of Distro hoping I guess}).  I have dealt with plenty on my kids pc's though and my friends pc's. I am very blase about my own "Privacy" and don't lose sleep worrying over who is watching me do what or who is eavesdropping on my e-mail content.  But I do understand peoples concerns and I think MS have gone too far in Windows 10 and done a terrible job in trying to "spin" the reasons why. Conspiracy theory enthusiasts are having a field day.

If Linux suddenly disappeared tomorrow, I would be like.... "Bugger - I really liked using that"  but would reboot and carry on with Windows.   I don't detest Windows, I don't think about or worry about the ethics of MS.  I have never been that deep a thinker.   I simply like playing with Computers.  Linux has made that playing much more fun but it simply can't fully replace Windows for me.   I tried... but ended up re-installing windows again.

Regards Zeb..

ps I fully expect responses that will blow me out of the water and that's fine.  That's another thing I can't be arsed to do and that is justify my thought processes with mountains of facts and examples just to get my point across.   :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: perknh on March 11, 2017, 08:09:37 am
...I fully expect responses that will blow me out of the water and that's fine.  That's another thing I can't be arsed to do and that is justify my thought processes with mountains of facts and examples just to get my point across.   :)

Well you won't be getting any such responses from me.  Among many other things, Linux is supposed to be about freedom of choice, and that includes the freedom to use another OS if you'd like.  But, thanks to your post, you reminded me of the update process in Windows which I don't like either.  I had to install Windows a couple of months ago on mrsperknh's computer, and I've never removed it.  Her computer has a 750 GB hard drive.  This means it has plenty of room for booting into Peppermint too.  Now my wife will NOT use Windows; she just won't use it.  So, you make ask, why would I keep Windows on her computer if she won't use it?  Short answer:  I never want to install it again, that's why.  The Windows 8.1 installation took me around 24 hours, maybe a little more.  As far as I'm concerned that was a wasted day of my life.  So, yeah, we have Windows 8.1 installed on a computer and in my house.  It's true that we don't use it, but yeah we have it. ::)

Years ago I got a few Trojans while using Windows Vista.  I was running Kaspersky antivirus too, so it can happen in the Windows.  Truth is, I think the cloud based AV of Windows defender is pretty good for an AV.

zebedeeboss, I'm glad things are going well for you running the two OSes.  I hope the day never comes when we lose open source software, however.  That is a concern of mine as a sense of community becomes weaker on this side of the Big Pond.

Oh, by the way, there's nothing wrong with your thought processes, zebedeeboss.  You have your own perspective on things.  I find this refreshing.  :)

perknh 
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: mac on March 11, 2017, 08:56:07 am
Nobody here would try to blow you out of the water for that, Zeb.  If the truth be told you'd probably discover that most of us, albeit secretly, still use Windows in some measure.  I use it once a year during the tax preparation season and, apart from that, crank it up about once a quarter for updates & fixes. 

That being said, a very wise man here on the forum says
Quote
If you can keep your head while all around are losing theirs then you're not quite grasping the situation
  In my mind (admittedly twisted) I can see that as a suitable mantra for many Windows users (present company excepted, of course) who wander euphorically through the enchanted land of Microsoft oblivious to the lions and tigers and bears that prowl the forest.  I don't know, maybe that's a blessing. 

Giving the devil his due I must say that it was Windows that mostly awakened the public-at-large to the magical world of home computing.  I'm not yet sure if that's a blessing or not but, hey, it is what it is.   ;)

cheers
mac
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 11, 2017, 09:21:02 am
I'LL BLOW HIM OUT OF THE WATER

Just kiddin :))

Windows sucks as an OS, but ATM it's a necessary evil (hell even I have to use it occasionally) because that's where the software is .. that said, I don't really agree with this bit (even if you're only talking about "desktop" PC's):-

Quote
Shedloads of people (the majority I would suggest) use windows and always will.

the software is already migrating elsewhere at an accelerated rate, as are "desktop" users....

I still stand by my prediction that at some (fast approaching) point "desktop" Windows won't be a financially viable proposition for Microsoft .. "desktop" Linux doesn't need to be to survive, it'll be as happy then as it is today as a niche OS or the underpinnings of what's to come.

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/666889/Windows-10-Microsoft-Extinction-Moment

Windows underpins NONE of the emerging technologies.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: murraymint on March 11, 2017, 09:28:55 am
I still stand by my prediction that at some (fast approaching) point "desktop" Windows won't be a financially viable proposition for Microsoft ..

I haven't checked it out but if they're really putting adverts in the file manager, it smacks of desperation.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: perknh on March 11, 2017, 10:30:30 am
In part my discomfort with Windows is that it's proprietary software, and the more I read about proprietary software, the less comfortable I feel about it.  Personally, I'm trying to minimize my use of it.  That said, with the gazillions of dollars that goes into proprietary software development, I have to admit there sure are some amazing programs out there with lots of bells and whistles.  Even as much as I like my Chromium browser in Peppermint, I have to say that Google Chrome works better in Peppermint and Ubuntu.  I hate saying that, but it's true.  I'm in the tedious and time-consuming process right now of changing from LastPass Password Manager, (https://www.lastpass.com/) which is proprietary, to Spideroak's Encryptr Password Manager (https://spideroak.com/personal/encryptr), which is open source.  But, again, I have to admit that LastPass is considerably easier to use.  However, I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut, that Encryptr (https://betanews.com/2015/09/11/encryptr-is-a-cloud-based-password-manager-and-e-wallet/) is more secure and less open to attack than LassPass' very convenient password manager.  I think, overall, going with FOSS is the better bet (https://www.academia.edu/777383/Open_Source_v._Proprietary_Software).  BUT when it comes to a browser such as Chrome which seems to be (https://www.quora.com/What-parts-of-Google-Chrome-are-not-open-source) about 98% open source, and about 2 % proprietary, I do wonder at times if Chrome really isn't more secure than Chromium browser.  I say this because Chromium can lag weeks to months behind with version upgrades.  This bothers me since I like like using an up-to-date browser. :-\

I still stand by my prediction that at some (fast approaching) point "desktop" Windows won't be a financially viable proposition for Microsoft .. "desktop" Linux doesn't need to be to survive, it'll be as happy then as it is today as a niche OS or the underpinnings of what's to come.

PCNetSpec, how I hope you're right about this.  Right now my country is on steroids with the privatization and capitalization of nearly everything imaginable.  Quite frankly, this scares me.  Concepts such as community or commonwealth are at risk of becoming extinct.  I see FOSS as concept sharing much in common with those two other terms.   Heaven forbid if we share a common interest in helping one another.  Social Darwinism now appears to be the politically correct flavor of the day.  I'd hate to lose FOSS because of a dated ideology.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: farms on March 14, 2017, 07:03:45 am
Hello Everyone i was a windows user 7 and did try 10 but the clean install of 7 ffs how long to do a clean install of w7 with the updates lol that is what made me take a chance with peppermint 7 and wow what a nice bunch of people and a easy switch over . 8)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 14, 2017, 07:25:40 am
Nice of you to say farms .. you're right, the Peppermint community has been blessed with some terriifc people :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: The PoorGuy on March 14, 2017, 03:40:12 pm
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Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: PCNetSpec on March 14, 2017, 04:46:09 pm
That seems to disable all the telemetry options Microsoft ALLOW you to disable, all from one place.

But I think the whole point of this topic is Microsoft don't provide a way to completely disable telemetry .. if I had to take a guess, I'd guess the only way to do that would be for some third party software to appear that completely replaces the entire network stack which you can bet Microsoft have made impossible without the source code of other OS components, and possibly illegal to implement anyway.

Simple fact is, you're not getting out of this .. you signed an EULA giving them permission to spy on you, and limiting your rights to modify Windows.

The only real question is .. are you okay with it ?

If so, fine, no problem :)

If not, use something else (doesn't have to be Peppermint, this is not a sales pitch ;) )
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: The PoorGuy on March 14, 2017, 05:46:12 pm
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Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: zebedeeboss on March 14, 2017, 11:36:28 pm
Hi

I am pretty sure the last time I tried that app it also stopped updates ???

Maybe it was how I set it up, but because of that I will never use it again and suggest other people stay away from it, especially computer illiterate friends and family. They WILL tinker - lol

Regards Zeb...
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: The PoorGuy on March 15, 2017, 03:42:41 am
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Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: scifidude79 on March 15, 2017, 08:05:22 am
The best way to update is sudo apt-get upgrade, or sudo apt-get dist-upgrade.  Not much to misunderstand.  8)
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: perknh on March 15, 2017, 08:37:52 am
The best way to update is sudo apt-get upgrade, or sudo apt-get dist-upgrade.  Not much to misunderstand.  8)

Yeah, you can't get much simpler than that.  I no longer feel comfortable running Windows.
Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: The PoorGuy on March 15, 2017, 03:35:30 pm
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Title: Re: Windows 10 will keep spying on you no matter how hard you try to stop it
Post by: The PoorGuy on March 15, 2017, 03:41:40 pm
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