Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: perknh on October 23, 2015, 08:50:37 am

Title: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: perknh on October 23, 2015, 08:50:37 am
And people say Windows is "easier"  ::)

What a difference, concerning ease of use, between Peppermint (or any of the --buntus for that matter) and Windows OS.

I'll try not to ramble or rant here, because I could go on and on with this.  So, in no particular order, and using Peppermint as an example, I'd like to begin here with a few observations I've made between having used Peppermint for a few years after having used Windows for several years before discovering Linux --especially Peppermint in particular.

Peppermint is fast and easy to install.  In the time it would take one to start one's day in the morning (bathe, clothe, and eat, you can install and update Peppermint.  Windows is not fast and easy to install.  In the time it takes to one to drive from Boston to Washington, D.C., you MAY be able to install and update Windows without a hitch --MAYBE!

Peppermint is easy to update.  There a fewer updates within Peppermint than Windows, and security updates can be downloaded and installed automatically.  Windows can take all day to update, and that's if you're lucky.  I've had to sleep next to a Windows computer before in order to update Vista throughout an evening and an entire night.

Peppermint does not requite an antivirus program which must be kept updated, and set for system scans.  Windows does require this --and this can be stressful, very time-consuming, and still leaving you without a good sense of security and protection.

Peppermint does not require CCleaner if you do not want your OS to get bogged down within weeks after installation.  Windows does need some such apparatus if you desire to keep humming along at a decent clip.

Peppermint has no registry that can be a source of all sorts of difficulties.  Windows does.

Peppermint can be easily customized to to suit personal preferences.  The panel can be re-sized and moved.  And although you can re-size the panel in Windows, you can't move it.  It is much easier to work on a computer that is customized to fit your predilections and needs. Never mind all the DEs that are available from a plethora of other Linux distributions.  Windows offers none of this.

When you need to install a program in Peppermint, you go right to the Software Center, or Synaptic, and you download and install it.  What's more, you know it's secure!  With Windows, you can go to the store, and hope that you're choosing wisely.

Peppermint is yours.  Windows is leased.  When you have a problem with your Linux OS you can easily come to this support forum and actually get help from people you can trust.  Since Windows is NEVER yours, when you have a problem with Windows you have several different options --none of which are easy to deal with --perhaps beginning a phone call that may eventually require you typing in long batches of letters and numbers to prove you are the legitimate lessee of the software your are using.  Sound easy?  Try it sometime. >:(

Etc... ad infinitum...And, I'm just beginning to scratch the surface here comparing the ease of use between Linux (Peppermint, in particular) and Windows.

Point being, the people who say that Windows is easier to use than Linux really do not have a clue about what they are talking about.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: scifidude79 on October 23, 2015, 09:32:34 am
Yep, all excellent points.  As I said in the thread where PCNetSpec posted that, Windows is only "easy" when it comes preinstalled on a computer.  That's because the OEM has done all of the install, driver install and whatnot that get the computer into a working order.  Though, on the flip side, they tend to crap it up with bloatware when they install.  Plus, you still are responsible for handling updates and drivers for any hardware you add.

Here's couple other points in favor of Peppermint:

Peppermint's file system doesn't fragment.  Windows' NTFS and FAT file systems put files right next to each other so that, when you save the file again and it's larger, the "extra" bit is put at the end, past the other files.  These are file fragments and they're not good.  The ironic thing is that Microsoft created this system so that the files can be accessed faster, but it's a double edged sword.  Files that become too fragmented can take longer to access, slowing the system down, or no longer be accessible.  If you have system files that are no longer accessible, you will run into massive issues and have to reinstall Windows.  So, you have to defragment every so often to prevent major issues, but they still crop up anyway over time because even defragmentation isn't a 100% stop measure.  Peppermint's EXT (and other) Linux/BSD file systems don't fragment because they spread the files out along the disk space.  They're not right against each other, leaving room for expansion and not causing fragmentation.  So, Peppermint never has to be defragmented.

Windows has to be restarted so dang often.  Installing the system has several reboots in it.  Install updates, reboot.  Install certain software, reboot.  The first step suggested in many Windows fixes is a reboot.  Peppermint, meanwhile, hardly ever has to reboot.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: perknh on October 23, 2015, 09:56:16 am
Excellent point, scifidude79 --and with an excellent explanation.  Hasta la vista, disk defragmentation.  I don't miss it!
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: scifidude79 on October 23, 2015, 10:54:45 am
Hasta la vista, disk defragmentation.  I don't miss it!

I'd imagine nobody misses it.  ;)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: darknet on October 23, 2015, 11:27:13 am
Hasta la vista, disk defragmentation.  I don't miss it!

I'd imagine nobody misses it.  ;)
allready 7 years disk defragmentation free :D
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 23, 2015, 12:07:33 pm
Yep, windows is easier  ::) :-\
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: sskarma on October 23, 2015, 08:34:22 pm
Yep, windows is easier  ::) :-\

For installing games and a few apps :P
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: scifidude79 on October 24, 2015, 12:39:06 am
For installing games and a few apps :P

Depends on what you mean by "installing games."  I think finding the games in the repositories and installing them via Synaptic, a terminal or even the Software Manager infinitely easier than installing games using CDs/DVDs in Windows.  It takes less time too.  And, don't even get me started on the Windows store they introduced for Windows 8.  Ugh, that's so horrid.

Otherwise, you have Steam, which is no easier or harder to use in either OS though, again, you can install the Steam app itself by simply using a terminal, Synaptic or the Software manager and download and install it in one fell swoop.  That's as opposed to opening your browser, going to Steam's website, downloading the app, going to the download location, clicking on the .exe file and installing it.  Way too many steps in that process.  Games sold on other sites that are Linux compatible are no easier or harder to run than a .exe file, in my opinion.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: zebedeeboss on October 24, 2015, 12:05:24 pm
For installing games and a few apps :P
That's as opposed to opening your browser, going to Steam's website, downloading the app, going to the download location, clicking on the .exe file and installing it.  Way too many steps in that process.  Games sold on other sites that are Linux compatible are no easier or harder to run than a .exe file, in my opinion.
5 steps as opposed to opening synaptic, inputting your password, searching for whatever, right clicking what you find, then ticking the install box and then clicking apply... err that's 6 steps!!  How many steps is too many?  and yes I know you can use terminal and install it with one line.
As for windows you sometimes get the option to run instead of dl and then why navigate to your download location when you can run the file from the browser status notification bar. So that makes the windows way now 4 steps... How many steps is too many?

I get it...  you don't like windows... but if you are going to have a pop at windows - please do so with an example that is not so easy to put holes in  :P
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 12:21:06 pm
Ok shall we add that the Windows game may require something like updated graphics drivers or possibly .net installing/updating requiring a dozen reboots, and possibly allowing through your firewall, or for Win10 access to your contacts and location (even when it doesn't really need them for the gameplay).

I don't think scifidude was saying Linux is necessarily "easier", just that Windows shouldn't be considered "easier" either (even for gaming) .. that's purely a misconception proffered by people that have used Windows for YEARS and have spent 10 minutes with Linux.

When I first came to Linux sure I found it harder .. now I've used it more than Windows I find Linux easier .. if I used them both the same amount who knows, but i do find Linux more logically laid out.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: sskarma on October 24, 2015, 02:01:32 pm
For installing games and a few apps :P

Depends on what you mean by "installing games."  I think finding the games in the repositories and installing them via Synaptic, a terminal or even the Software Manager infinitely easier than installing games using CDs/DVDs in Windows.  It takes less time too.  And, don't even get me started on the Windows store they introduced for Windows 8.  Ugh, that's so horrid.

Otherwise, you have Steam, which is no easier or harder to use in either OS though, again, you can install the Steam app itself by simply using a terminal, Synaptic or the Software manager and download and install it in one fell swoop.  That's as opposed to opening your browser, going to Steam's website, downloading the app, going to the download location, clicking on the .exe file and installing it.  Way too many steps in that process.  Games sold on other sites that are Linux compatible are no easier or harder to run than a .exe file, in my opinion.

Windows user:

1. Get Windows pre-installed on PC/Laptop
2. Buy/download game.
3. install "setup.exe"
4. play

Linux user:

1. buy a PC/Laptop
2. Install a Linux Distro of choice
3. Update the system
4. download and Install game from repository or download steam
5. play

However we have to consider the fact that an user who has used windows all his/her life will have a little bit of trouble using a Linux Distro at first. But the reverse is not usually true. Most full time Linux users have had used Windows before and hence, they are already familiar with it. So installing games and a few apps (the ones that come in paid DVDs)  is easier for an average computer user. Because they just want things to be simple and usual. (speaking of which, they also need to turn their Antivirus alerts off for a while or those crappy notification pop-ups which disturb the gameplay).
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 03:03:15 pm
You missed out "update the system" for Windows .. let me fix that for you

Windows user:

1. Get Windows pre-installed on PC/Laptop
2. Turn it on and fill in your credentials
3. if >= Win8 figure out how to create a microsoft  account before it'll let you log on
4. log on
5. Update the system
6. Reboot
7. Find that there's still more updates
8. Install them
9. Reboot
10. Find that there's STILL more updates
11. Install them
12. Reboot
13. Find that there's STILL more updates
14. Install them
15. Reboot
16. Buy/download game.
17. install "setup.exe"
18. discover the game install throws an error message that you need .net installing
19. go get .net
20. install .net
21. Reboot
22. Notice that there's suddenly more updates
23. Install them
24. Reboot
25. go to bed because it's now too late to play the damn game
26. wake up and play the game

[EDIT]

Oh and I forgot to add -
After creating your microsoft account, wait for Microsoft to phone/text/email you a confirmation code and enter it
and
go buy antivirus software
install it
Reboot
Update AV definitions .. which pulls in an updated version of the AV software
Re-Fekin-Boot

[EDIT 2]

I also forgot -

Discover in the middle of an interesting part of the game that the PC suddenly reboots and looses your progress because Windows downloaded yet another update in the background and you didn't see the "This computer will automatically reboot in 15 minutes .. Reboot now / Cancel" messege. ;)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: zebedeeboss on October 24, 2015, 03:33:44 pm
Yawn...
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 03:44:32 pm
LOL ..

Tired ? .. go to bed my friend, you can always play that Windows game in the morning ;)

[EDIT]

For clarity I'm not *really* a Windows hater (I no longer use it so why hate it) .. I reserve that special distain for Microsoft (and Apple) as a company, and OS X as an OS

Linux main problem is getting pre-installed, so (2) is a BIG problem for Linux "ease of use" .. but you can't argue with the points I brought up above, and if you bought a Windows preinstalled and Linux preinstalled system and you understood them both, you'd HIGHLY  likely be playing the game sooner in Linux.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: emegra on October 24, 2015, 04:17:45 pm
I honestly don't think any one system is easier to use than the other it's more about familiarity and the comfort that comes from knowing you're doing the same thing as everyone else, yet not doing what everybody else is doing is one of the biggest attractions of Linux for me and I have a feeling I'm not unique in that on this forum because it's things like that that bring like minded people together,but we are the minority and I'm ok with that, 

I never moved away from Windows because I was fed up of viruses, malware/spyware slow up, crashes losing data through Windows, update BSOD's or any other of the maladies that plague MS Windows, I was bored with it and When I first decided to try Linux I thought I was just trying a different operating system but soon learned differently, moving to Linux introduced me to the concept of free software and what it really means, Linux has actually changed the way I think and how I look at the world

We can go on bashing Windows till the end of time and it will make no difference to those who simply don't like change,dont care or just can't be bothered to think for themselves.

I've introduced various friends and family to Linux and everyone has adapted without any problems at all but the one area I find there's a problem is installing software, somehow they just don't get package management, to me this is crazy because the package manager is probably the biggest advantage Linux has over Windows in terms of ease of use, personally I think it's because it's just too radically different from how it's done in Windows regardless of how easy it is,

How many of us have switched someone over to Linux only to find Windows .exe files in their Downloads folder,




Graeme
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: perknh on October 24, 2015, 04:41:21 pm
Although I'm not a gamer, I find PCNetSpec's description above to have been exactly what I had experienced for several years with Windows.

It's been ages since I've had any serious issue with Linux at all --particularly Peppermint.  What was my last issue with Peppermint --a wayward ICE application?  And, before that?  Well, I needed brush up course from AndyInMokum as to how to remove old Linux kernels. 

And, before that?  Maybe it was some anxiety that an unsupported Peppermint 4 installation might have been causing my laptop computer to overheat.  Yes, I have to go back to Peppermint 4 for that one.  (And, by the way, it was this unsupported edition of Peppermint 4 that convinced my wife to replace Windows entirely and simply go with Peppermint 4.  See, that's how bad we thought Peppermint 4 was!)

Yup, you can all see now --my history of hardship with Peppermint Linux OS.  Clearly perknh's household has had a very tough time here using Peppermint Linux OS! ;D

... moving to Linux introduced me to the concept of free software and what it really means, Linux has actually changed the way I think and how I look at the world

Yes, that concept has also changed me, and how I see the world too.  Thank you, emegra, for bringing up this most important point --which, in the long run, is proving to be the most important point of Linux of all.
 

Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 04:47:45 pm
How many of us have switched someone over to Linux only to find Windows .exe files in their Downloads folder

LOL .. I'd say ALL OF US :)

As I said, I'm not really a Windows hater (as long as I don't have to use/fix it) .. but because of what I do for a living I do find the occasional bit of Windows bashing strangely cathartic and theraputic :)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: VinDSL on October 24, 2015, 06:20:29 pm
I find there's a problem is installing software, somehow they just don't get package management, to me this is crazy because the package manager is probably the biggest advantage Linux has over Windows in terms of ease of use, personally I think it's because it's just too radically different from how it's done in Windows regardless of how easy it is.

I totally agree.  For instance, I ran openSUSE for a few years, as my primary distro - loved it, but...

OMG !!! Installing programs in openSUSE was a nightmare.  Debian forks are a cakewalk (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cakewalk&oldid=682667961#Modern_times) by comparison.

Being a seasoned Linux veteran, check this out, and tell me what you think:

http://opensuse-guide.org/installpackage.php    >:(

Imagine a first-time *nix (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Unix-like&oldid=687216285) user trying to install a program on SUSE...
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 07:02:15 pm
I don't have to read it .. openSUSE was the first distro I tried (after a quick foray into RHL 4.1 around 97ish which scared the living **** outa me), YaST2 was a horrid experience.

and their "one click" installs used to fail about 110% of the time back then  :o

I gave up SUSE when the (new at the time) KDE4.1 desktop decided it wanted to load the panel applets before the system tray had started then chuck up errors, and I couldn't (at the time) find a fix .. put me right off SUSE and KDE (and RPM's) permanently.

Replaced it with Ubuntu Karmic and stayed with Ubuntu until Unity .. then after *trying* to get along with Unity and Gnome 3 (and wasting 6 months of my life)  and failing, came here.


[EDIT]

I remember Cakewalk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk_%28sequencer%29) :)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 24, 2015, 07:27:20 pm
Quote
...Imagine a first-time *nix user trying to install a program on SUSE...
Five minutes of that would turn any nOOb into a gibbering idiot or make 'em suicidal  ::)!!
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 07:29:54 pm
Quote
Five minutes of that would turn any nOOb into a gibbering idiot

Well that explains it then .. I spent WAY more than 5 mins with it, and apparently so did VinDSL :))

Wanna see a gibbering idiot .. give someone the RedHat Linux 4.1 floppy disk set and ask em to install it on a Win95 era PC  >:(
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: VinDSL on October 24, 2015, 07:44:21 pm
Well that explains it then .. I spent WAY more than 5 mins with it, and apparently so did VinDSL :))

My first foray after openSUSE was Linux Mint Gloria (let's see if this ancient link works):


(https://s3-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fvindsl.com%2Fimages%2FMint-7-EeePC(2).png&sp=0afa3ef0cbfb118de7cbdbf4c41912e9)


Back then, I couldn't stand Ubu, with their dirt-brown themes and all...   ;D
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 07:55:22 pm
and green was better  :-\
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: VinDSL on October 24, 2015, 08:08:50 pm
and green was better  :-\

You've commented on that before, and I never put the pieces of the puzzle together until now.

openSUSE was green, and Mint was green.  I've even made 'green' Ubu and Peppermint themes.

I guess I'm subconsciously drawn to 'green', from time-to-time, even though I don't like 'green'.

It must be some sort of psychological defect or something. 

Seriously, I don't like 'green'.  It repulses me, actually.

Hrm... I'll need to consult with Google Search on this...   :(
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 24, 2015, 08:22:19 pm
I thought you were going to say you needed to consult with the Google "Docs" on this.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: VinDSL on October 24, 2015, 08:29:28 pm
LoL !  You're 'on' today...  :D
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: scifidude79 on October 25, 2015, 01:37:27 am
I get it...  you don't like windows... but if you are going to have a pop at windows - please do so with an example that is not so easy to put holes in  :P

I don't have to "take a pop" at anything.  Here's one word for which there is no rebuttal: viruses.  Windows has them, Linux doesn't.  A Windows user has to invest time and possibly money in installing virus software, updating it and running virus scans.  A Linux user doesn't.  End of story.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: zebedeeboss on October 25, 2015, 02:39:24 am
Here's one word for which there is no rebuttal: viruses.  Windows has them, Linux doesn't.

Yes it does - it's just a darn sight harder to catch a cold with Linux.

and may I apologise in public to everyone reading this thread if I have offended anyone with my retorts. It is not my intent and I definitely don't want to get anyone's backs up over it.  I love this place and the helpfulness of the experts in here.

I just get frustrated when people express an opinion as fact when my take on the matter is completely different.  I guess I just have to learn to be more tolerant of other peoples experiences and views of Windows. I promise to try harder  :)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: perknh on October 25, 2015, 05:39:55 am
One thing this discussion has proven, however, it that Linux is actually easier to use than Windows.  We don't need all those extra programs we would need in Windows just to remain operational.  Although we can have an AV in Linux if we'd like, we don't have to have one to remain secure online. (Stay behind a NAT router, stick to programs within the repositories, keep updated, and don't click onto spam email.)  Also, there is nothing to defrag in Linux.  Installing and updating are also easier to do with Linux than with Windows.

If one uses Chrome OS as an example, all one has to do is open a Chromebook and start working.  We wouldn't have to do anything more than that. (All updates are done in the background.)   And with Ubuntu, Mint, and Peppermint, the most we really ever have to do is update when updates are available.   We don't have to configure anything.  We don't even have to upgrade with any of the --buntus, or their derivatives. (We do have to update and dist-upgrade when using a Debian testing distribution.)  We don't have to maintain an AV program.  We don't have to remove old Linux kernels.  If we just installed a new distribution every three to fives years (assuming we're going LTS), I'm certain we could get along just fine.  And, in those rare instances where we have a problem, or we have a question, we have a tremendous support forum which has already answered hundreds, if not thousands, of questions already.  But, still, no need to phone anyone.

Yes, I'm convinced that for ease of use, Linux really is the way to go. ;)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 25, 2015, 07:43:13 am
In truth, Linux *can* (in some circumstances) be more difficult for a novice than Windows .. take (non HP) printer driver installation for an example, this is not a problem with Linux as much as with the manufacturers, but that gives little comfort to a new user.

But that doesn't mean Windows is "easier" than Linux .. sure Windows is *sometimes* easier to add peripherals to, though stupendously more time consuming and frustrating for someone that *does* understand Linux (and Windows) .. but if you don't run into those occasions Linux is most definitely easier, 99% of the time Linux just does it for you

Here's a question .. when the few hardware manufacturers that are left that don't put effort into doing open source drivers get onboard (and they will .. partially because of Android and Chromebooks), or when people buy their hardware with Linux in mind instead of "certified for Windows" .. would you still consider Windows "easier" ?

Like nearly everyone I know that has become proficient with Linux (usually after becoming proficient with Windows first), I remain convinced that for someone being given an empty PC for the first time, and with zero prior Windows or Linux knowledge, Linux would be easier to learn and faster to become productive on. Heck thanks to "Live" sessions they don't even have to figure out the installation procedure (which is easier in Linux anyway), or where to get software, or how to install it.

Anything beyond that siimple fact is purely "learned" behaviour and applies to either OS equally.

[EDIT]

@zebedeeboss

You'll never upset anyone here by just having a differing opinion my mate (and if you do, it's them that are in the wrong) .. in fact counterpoint is fuel for the discussion :)

I must however take you up on this:-

Quote
Yes it does - it's just a darn sight harder to catch a cold with Linux.

Can you show me one in the wild ? .. nearly all, if not all, Linux viruses have been proof of concept in the lab and never seen in the wild .. add to that the fact that any Linux virus that does make it into the wild finds it impossible to spread, and limited in any damage it can do, and whilst you're not wrong, it would be more accurate to say "at least for now it's as close to impossible to catch a cold in Linux that it may as well be considered non existant, and any virus even if they did exist would require your assistance before they could do any real damage to your system .. and that because they cannot spread and replicate they probably shouldn't be considered viruses in the first place".

Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: scifidude79 on October 25, 2015, 09:20:43 am
Realistically, none of it is "easier."  Every OS has its highlights and its lows.  However, what I believe that pernkh is trying to dispel with this discussion is the commonly held myth that Linux is more difficult to work with than Windows, which of course is a lie spread by Microsoft.  Back in the pre-Ubuntu days, that may have been true to a certain extent.  However, Canonical and a lot of other modern Linux OS makers have worked hard to make the newer Linux OSes more user friendly.

@zeedeeboss:  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not offended.  Discussions with differing opinions are the spice of life.  If we were all of identical mindset, this would be a boring place.  Never stop voicing your opinions or your views on things.   8)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: perknh on October 25, 2015, 10:21:27 am
In truth, Linux *can* (in some circumstances) be more difficult for a novice than Windows .. take (non HP) printer driver installation for an example, this is not a problem with Linux as much as with the manufacturers, but that gives little comfort to a new user.

Good points.  And, forget me trying to learn how to install Arch and then build an Arch distribution.  Realistically, it's never going to happen! 

But that doesn't mean Windows is "easier" than Linux .. sure Windows is *sometimes* easier to add peripherals to, though stupendously more time consuming and frustrating for someone that *does* understand Linux (and Windows) .. but if you don't run into those occasions Linux is most definitely easier, 99% of the time Linux just does it for you.

Yes, it's that 99% of the time that I'm referring to. ;)

Here's a question .. when the few hardware manufacturers that are left that don't put effort into doing open source drivers get onboard (and they will .. partially because of Android and Chromebooks), or when people buy their hardware with Linux in mind instead of "certified for Windows" .. would you still consider Windows "easier" ?

I do that now.  I always buy Windows hardware with the intention of installing Linux onto it.  I was shocked, however, to see how difficult it was to install Peppermint onto a Chromebook.  I know we have tutorial on how to do so, but it certainly isn't easy to do.  And that's going from Linux to Linux!  AndyInMokum said it best about lend27.  lend27 is "officially a superstar"...!!!

Like nearly everyone I know that has become proficient with Linux (usually after becoming proficient with Windows first), I remain convinced that for someone being given an empty PC for the first time, and with zero prior Windows or Linux knowledge, Linux would be easier to learn and faster to become productive on. Heck thanks to "Live" sessions they don't even have to figure out the installation procedure (which is easier in Linux anyway), or where to get software, or how to install it.

I spent a great deal of my early morning searching the Web unsuccessfully trying to find an article about a tiny group of senior citizens in a nursing home learning about computers for the first time.  In this tiny experiment, most residents within the nursing home found Ubuntu easier to learn than Windows.

Anything beyond that siimple fact is purely "learned" behaviour and applies to either OS equally.

Yes!  And, from what I'm hearing about Windows recently, it is pretty easy to use, and even pretty secure, these days.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: zebedeeboss on October 25, 2015, 10:27:53 am
@zebedeeboss

I must however take you up on this:-

Quote
Yes it does - it's just a darn sight harder to catch a cold with Linux.

Can you show me one in the wild ? .. nearly all, if not all, Linux viruses have been proof of concept in the lab and never seen in the wild .. add to that the fact that any Linux virus that does make it into the wild finds it impossible to spread, and limited in any damage it can do, and whilst you're not wrong, it would be more accurate to say "at least for now it's as close to impossible to catch a cold in Linux that it may as well be considered non existant, and any virus even if they did exist would require your assistance before they could do any real damage to your system .. and that because they cannot spread and replicate they probably shouldn't be considered viruses in the first place".

No... I can't because I have never personally caught a cold on Windows either, although I have fixed many friends PC's who have.  I was however taking the information from a number of google searches that come up with information regarding Linux virus's.   https://blogs.sophos.com/2015/03/26/dont-believe-these-four-myths-about-linux-security/ (https://blogs.sophos.com/2015/03/26/dont-believe-these-four-myths-about-linux-security/) as one example and I am immediately drawn to the paranoid thoughts out there that it is the "anti-virus" companies spreading the Virus's so they can sell their products.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: perknh on October 25, 2015, 11:28:35 am
I've read this before, zebedeeboss, it appears to me that Sophos is gathering too much personal information from its Linux users in order to install its AV software.  I suspect that Sophos is just as much about your and my user data as it is about our "protection."  If you're behind a NAT router, with its firewall enabled, (or if you've installed and enabled a software firewall), and you don't click on spam messages in your inbox.  You should really be extremely safe from malware threats running Peppermint, or any supported Linux distribution.

By the way, don't be surprised if PCNetSpec doesn't respond to this particular post.  He's on record as having said enough about this subject already.   And, it's not personal either.  He's just tired of it. ;) 

http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1929.msg18546.html#msg18546 (http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1929.msg18546.html#msg18546)


http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1929.msg18565.html#msg18565 (http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1929.msg18565.html#msg18565)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: sskarma on October 25, 2015, 11:39:14 am
You missed out "update the system" for Windows .. let me fix that for you

Windows user:

1. Get Windows pre-installed on PC/Laptop
2. Turn it on and fill in your credentials
3. if >= Win8 figure out how to create a microsoft  account before it'll let you log on
4. log on
5. Update the system
6. Reboot
7. Find that there's still more updates
8. Install them
9. Reboot
10. Find that there's STILL more updates
11. Install them
12. Reboot
13. Find that there's STILL more updates
14. Install them
15. Reboot
16. Buy/download game.
17. install "setup.exe"
18. discover the game install throws an error message that you need .net installing
19. go get .net
20. install .net
21. Reboot
22. Notice that there's suddenly more updates
23. Install them
24. Reboot
25. go to bed because it's now too late to play the damn game
26. wake up and play the game

[EDIT]

Oh and I forgot to add -
After creating your microsoft account, wait for Microsoft to phone/text/email you a confirmation code and enter it
and
go buy antivirus software
install it
Reboot
Update AV definitions .. which pulls in an updated version of the AV software
Re-Fekin-Boot

[EDIT 2]

I also forgot -

Discover in the middle of an interesting part of the game that the PC suddenly reboots and looses your progress because Windows downloaded yet another update in the background and you didn't see the "This computer will automatically reboot in 15 minutes .. Reboot now / Cancel" messege. ;)

And then one day, the computer is dead. or is turned into a blue-screen zombie :D
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: perknh on October 25, 2015, 12:14:46 pm
And then one day, the computer is dead. or is turned into a blue-screen zombie :D

You're right, sk_sarmapmx!  ;)

Perhaps Windows, in some ways, is actually easier than Linux.  That "blue-screen zombie" sure is easy on the eyes! ;D
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 25, 2015, 01:19:53 pm
@zebedeeboss

Yeah I'd take anything said by an AV company with a vested interest in selling you something with a pinch of salt ;)
(comparing Linux to OS X is a misnomer from the start .. they get their software in a completely different way than Linux)
(heartbleed and shellshock were NOT viruses, and no AV would have protected against them .. they were vulnerabilities in code that were VERY quickly fixed)
(thier points about PPA's are however valid .. get your software from the default repos, or PPA's owned by the software authors ONLY)

Drawing comparisons between server attacks and viruses/AV is idiotic .. servers are not attacked by  viruses or anything else an AV could proetct against.

and this:-

Quote
The number of “in the wild” threats for Linux-based operating systems is still way lower than threats for Microsoft Windows or Apple OS X.

is misleading .. it shouldn't say "way lower", it should say "non existant in the wild" .. if they're talking about viruses .. attacks against servers (DDOS / password brute force attacks / webserver software vulnerabilities) are a completely different issue, and except for vulnerabilities (usually fixed immediately on discovery) and DDOS attacks, easily preventable if the admin knows what he's doing.


Can I draw your attention to this .. which says it better than anything I've ever come across:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/
and as secondary reding:
http://www.caribyte.com/articles/short_life_hard_times_of_linux_virus



Quote
@zeedeeboss:  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not offended.  Discussions with differing opinions are the spice of life.  If we were all of identical mindset, this would be a boring place.  Never stop voicing your opinions or your views on things.

100% this .. +1000 :)



Can I ask:-

Quote
No... I can't because I have never personally caught a cold on Windows either

How would you know ? .. you can't study the code, and nor can anyone else.
(IIRC for a while the servers at Kaspersky were distributing thier AV product that had a virus)

Yes the same question could be asked of Linux, but as we all get our software from the same place you're not just relying on your own skill in detecting odd system behaviour .. you also have the skill of experts browsing the code (which is all "open" for scrutiny) to fall back on.

Linux doesn't require AV not because it's impossible to write malicious code for Linux, but because it's method of aquiring software, and built in security measures mean it has AV built in, and it's much more effective that any AV bolted onto an insecure OS.



I'm not saying malicious Linux code can't exist... what I AM saying is that it doesn't meet the criteria needed to be called a true "Virus"... ie. the ability to reproduce and spread from PC to PC... indeed there have been a few (loosely termed) Linux viruses... Less than 35 in total (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Linuxvirus)... most of which were "proof of concept" code that doesn't exist in the wild... the few trojans/worms that "did" exist in the wild have long since been patched against., and any new ones that "may" appear would quickly be patched... in the Windows world, AVG sees about 150,000 samples of malware every day. Up to 30,000 of those can be new and unique viruses never seen before (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8056486.stm)... that's up to a staggering 10,950,000 *new* pieces of malicious Windows code per year (believe me, even I had to double check that number ;) )
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: zebedeeboss on October 25, 2015, 02:14:39 pm
How would I know.   Technically I wouldn't as I am not clever enough in that field.     and if I don't know and it isn't effecting my machine in any noticeable way... why worry about it. I could drive to work tomorrow and be blindsided by a huge truck and end up in hospital, but it doesn't stop me from driving. 

As many forum members have already stated.  "Common Sense" is the best AV out there.    That and I am always re-installing windows every 6-9 months cos I am a "PC Junkie", its also why I distro hop.   Oh and before you all jump in here - LOL - No it's not because windows has developed a fault, ground to a halt, Blue screened or any other anomoly blamed on MS  :P .  I simply get immense satisfaction in installing an OS, I'm also getting better and quicker at it all the time, and then setting up all the apps I need do do what I do on my computer.  Oh and the fact that I mess around with software, to be able to help friends, so often that I just like a new clean fresh windows install.   Linux too - it's just gonna take me a few years to become "knowledgeable"  8)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 25, 2015, 02:17:51 pm
How would I know.   Technically I wouldn't as I am not clever enough in that field.     and if I don't know and it isn't effecting my machine in any noticeable way... why worry about it. I could drive to work tomorrow and be blindsided by a huge truck and end up in hospital, but it doesn't stop me from driving. 

That's not the point I was trying to make .. my point was because we all get our software from the same source you're not relying on just your knowledge in Linux, like a lot of thigs it's being done FOR you and the process is open and transparent ;)
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: zebedeeboss on October 25, 2015, 02:53:57 pm
How would I know.   Technically I wouldn't as I am not clever enough in that field.     and if I don't know and it isn't effecting my machine in any noticeable way... why worry about it. I could drive to work tomorrow and be blindsided by a huge truck and end up in hospital, but it doesn't stop me from driving. 

That's not the point I was trying to make .. my point was because we all get our software from the same source you're not relying on just your knowledge in Linux, like a lot of thigs it's being done FOR you and the process is open and transparent ;)

and long may it continue  ;D it is truly appreciated.
Title: Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
Post by: VinDSL on October 26, 2015, 12:10:50 am
Just found this article on LinkedIn, of all places...  :D

Hacking Windows 10 using a simple windows excel file (http://blog.extremehacking.org/blog/2015/10/25/hacking-windows-10-using-a-simple-windows-excel-file/)

See !  winders is easier !