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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: PCNetSpec on October 08, 2015, 05:47:15 pm

Title: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 08, 2015, 05:47:15 pm
Just spotted the Manjaro Cinnamon release announcement

What's next ?

Trinity, Budgie, Hawaii, Deepin, Pantheon .. or maybe WindowMaker, or CDE

What's the point of having a million ISO's ? .. just cherry pick the best bits and make one good ISO ;)

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against Manjaro, I'm just baffled by the bazzillion editions .. all with pretty stock DE's
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on October 08, 2015, 07:07:06 pm
Hello PCNetSpec,

The Cinnamon DE, from what I can tell, appears to be a bridge DE for Windows users to Linux --at least that's what Cinnamon DE looked like to me when I tried Mint's Cinnamon edition. (I figure Cinnamon in both Mint and Manjaro must resemble each other.)  Maybe Manjaro is trying to pull in more of the Windows crowd. :-\

I notice it's a community edition.

perknh
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 08, 2015, 07:40:34 pm
That's the crux of my question though perknh .. AFAIK (and I could be wrong) they are all pretty stock DE's maybe with a new theme .. what's the point ?

for example, why would I want Manjaro Cinnamon over Mint, or Stock Manjaro with Cinnamon installed so I can switch session.

Okay I get that they're community spins, so maybe I'm being a little hard .. it just seems that every day there's a new "edition", which isn't really a new edition, just a new default DE

[EDIT]

I suppose they give people a chance to see what it'd be like in a Live session before installing the DE in stock Manjaro .. or to decide they like that DE as the default better than the stock version(s)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on October 08, 2015, 07:52:13 pm
I really don't know. :-\ 

But there is one DE that I see most distributions keeping far away from --and that's Unity.  There's OZ Unity, Makulu's version of Unity, and maybe a handful of others.  But few distributions dare go near it, and it's probably the one DE that needs the most work too.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 08, 2015, 07:55:47 pm
With Unity 8 around the corner (and its reliance on Mir) bunging out a distro with Unity is probably a little risky and unsustainable ATM.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on October 08, 2015, 08:19:07 pm
Well that will be interesting.  I forgot to mention that LXQt doesn't seem to be doing so well at the moment either.  I wonder if development is continuing for LXQt.  At the very least it looks as if development for LXQt is stagnant for the time-being.

Peppermint chose wisely not to go down the LXQt path. ;)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 08, 2015, 08:47:34 pm
What makes you say LXQt has stagnated ?

Their mailing lists don't seem to suggest any slowdown (not that development was quick in the first place), and they have a planned milestone of Oct 31st for the 0.10 release:
https://github.com/lxde/lxqt/milestones

or am I missing something ?

Not that it makes much difference to us...

[EDIT]

Although you *may* be right:
https://github.com/lxde/lxqt/graphs/contributors?from=2014-10-09&to=2015-10-09&type=c
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on October 08, 2015, 09:48:58 pm
What makes you say LXQt has stagnated ?


or am I missing something ?

[EDIT]


Although you *may* be right:

Hi PCNetSpec

And maybe I'm wrong.  I've haven't checked out the 15.10 Lubuntu to see how things are going with LXQt there, but Manaro's LXQt hasn't gone very far since I first checked it out about 14 months ago.  I can't find the source of where I saw that development had nearly stopped about a year ago.  I actually think you're right about LXQt's development.  The development of LXQt hasn't stopped; it is just moving along at a snail's pace.

I know this, I can't enlarge the LXQt clock over at Manjaro, and if you want people to use your DE --the clock had better be easy to configure and see.  Even Trisquel's clock is easier to see than Manjaro's LXQt clock  --but not by much. 

perknh

Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 09, 2015, 12:02:41 am
I'd settle for them releasing one that works correctly. ::)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on October 09, 2015, 06:04:46 am
Me too.  I've pretty well given up on Manjaro.  I couldn't believe that I had experienced two kernel panics with Manjaro's Xfce Bellatrix edition right after it was released about a week ago.  A kernel panic, from my understanding, is Linux's equivalent to Window's blue screen of death --but without that nice bright shade of blue! ;D
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: sskarma on October 09, 2015, 06:14:36 am
they are compromising their quality over quantity.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on October 09, 2015, 07:04:39 am
I wish they wouldn't release their newer distributions until they've sorted out issues like possible kernel panics.   A kernel panic is a very serous issue.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 09, 2015, 09:45:37 am
Me too.  I've pretty well given up on Manjaro.  I couldn't believe that I had experienced two kernel panics with Manjaro's Xfce Bellatrix edition right after it was released about a week ago.  A kernel panic, from my understanding, is Linux's equivalent to Window's blue screen of death --but without that nice bright shade of blue! ;D

Were you trying to boot it using your GRUB installation from Peppermint or anything other than Manjaro's GRUB installation?  If so, that's why you got the kernel panic message.  It's a bug, and a really bad one at that.  They give you the option to install GRUB to your / partition during installation but don't even warn you that there's a bug with that, unless it's in the release notes, which I can't even find.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on October 09, 2015, 01:46:20 pm
Were you trying to boot it using your GRUB installation from Peppermint or anything other than Manjaro's GRUB installation?  If so, that's why you got the kernel panic message.  It's a bug, and a really bad one at that.  They give you the option to install GRUB to your / partition during installation but don't even warn you that there's a bug with that, unless it's in the release notes, which I can't even find.

Yes, exactly!  I was trying to boot Manjaro from my external hard drive from which I had, and have, Peppermint 6 installed.  When I removed the external hard drive, I had no problem booting into Manjaro at all --which was directly from my computer's internal hard drive.  However I decided I wanted Peppermint to boot up externally first by default, while still allowing myself to scroll down to Manjaro's Xfce edition if I wanted to go with an Xfce desktop for a while.  I couldn't do it though.  While trying to boot into Manjaro through my external drive, I experienced these kernel panics with Manjaro.  I don't get kernel panics when I boot up in this manner with Mint, Ubuntu, or Debian.  I only have this problem with Manjaro.

I'm burnt out with Manjaro right now.

Thank you, scifidude79.  You understand exactly what I was experiencing.  Those kernel panics sure get old fast.  I need to say hasta la vista to Manjaro for the time being.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 09, 2015, 11:55:15 pm
Yeah, I don't know why they would even call that a final release with a bug like that in it.  I was really mad when I installed Manjaro 15.09 XFCE, went to boot it and got that kernel panic message.  They need to fix that if they want anybody to really take them seriously.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 10, 2015, 10:09:23 am
There seems to be a LOT of elitists out there quite willing to put up with bugs like that .. I can only assume it's so they can say things like "Hey look at me, I run Arch" and "Ubuntu is only for noobs" and "You're an idiot if you don't run Arch" and strut around like some kind of demented self important peacocks, I'm pretty sure they'd all be Mac elitists if they could afford it ::)

Take LinuxGT with it's user directory bookmarks still in the developers name, and screen butterflies .. nothing major or show stopping but the "Sub-Arch" crowd are still raving about it just because it's Arch based .. I just don't get it  :-\

Wanna know what I mean by screen butterflies .. wait for the "WHAT'S THAT" in this video (shortly after 7 mins in) .. I know I shouldn't but it made me laugh like an idiot :))

Now let me add I've nothing against Arch/Manjaro/LinuxGT themselves (that would be stupid, and I GREATLY admire their developers skill and hard work .. this stuff aint easy, specially when there's limited time/resources .. so minor bugs do sometimes get overlooked, and are usually quickly fixed) .. it's the elitist attitude of some of their USERS that gets to me, and how they're willing to put down anything that's not Arch when Arch (and its derivatives)  aint perfect either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJiUmqm8Egk

[EDIT]

I *really* need to stop letting these people (well one guy in particular) get under my skin  :-[
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 11, 2015, 09:59:44 am
I don't get those kind of attitudes either.  To me, it's justa matter of taste.  Even though I often talk smack about Ubuntu/Canonical, their stuff works out of the box 99.9% of the time and will continue working during its life.  You don't have to be a newbie to like that level of stability.

I installed regular Arch a while back following the install instructions for newbies in their beginner guide to the letter, rebooted and was greeted by a Grub Rescue message.  (only OS on the computer)  I guess that makes me stupid in the eyes of those users, but I don't care.  Then there's crap like this thing with Grub in Manjaro that just ticks me off.  I don't want to use their Grub installation, I want to use the one I installed with Peppermint.  If that's not an option, don't list it as an option when I'm installing.  Crap like that just turns me against an OS.

Currently, my favorite Arch-based distro is Apricity OS.  It's pretty stable, and it's still in Beta.  Plus, it has Ice, which is never a bad thing.  ;)  It has no issues with things like dual booting with Grub installed to its / partition.  Plus, I haven't found a major issue with it that's not related to things that are in the Arch repositories and are probably issues across the board with Arch-based distros, like Wine 64-bit not working correctly.

But, those are just my thoughts, random and incoherent as they may be. :))
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 13, 2015, 06:51:13 pm
FFS, this topic is 5 days old and there's already been another 2 editions, fluxbox on the 10th and JWM on the 13th ::)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 13, 2015, 07:42:31 pm
FFS, this topic is 5 days old and there's already been another 2 editions, fluxbox on the 10th and JWM on the 13th ::)
Good God, what are they doing  :-\? 
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: Slim.Fatz on October 13, 2015, 11:48:38 pm
Hi everyone,

The Manjaronians seem to permit anyone to install and configure a different window manager (wm) -- such as JWM -- give it a trendy name and then put it in the category "community edition" -- all of which catches the attention of bloggers and even DistroWatch.com (http://distrowatch.com). Result: lots of free publicity.

Anything really new? Not really.  ::)

Regards,

-- Slim
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 14, 2015, 01:41:57 am
Budgie, they're missing a Budgie version  ;D!!
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: darknet on October 14, 2015, 04:43:07 am
No, there is allready one :D look here: https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=25451.0
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 14, 2015, 06:22:09 am
Hi everyone,

The Manjaronians seem to permit anyone to install and configure a different window manager (wm) -- such as JWM -- give it a trendy name and then put it in the category "community edition" -- all of which catches the attention of bloggers and even DistroWatch.com (http://distrowatch.com). Result: lots of free publicity.

Anything really new? Not really.  ::)

Regards,

-- Slim

Yeah that ;)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 14, 2015, 07:19:01 am
No, there is allready one :D look here: https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=25451.0
Good grief  :o!!
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 14, 2015, 08:01:27 am
Maybe we should do it too but with apps rather than DE's .. post instructions how to unpack an ISO add ONE piece of software and repack it, then have "community editions" like

Peppermint 6 LibreOffice edition
Peppermint 6 GIMP edition
Peppermint 6 Clock on the desktop edition
Peppermint 6 Red cursor edit
Peppermint 6 Black cursor edit
Peppermint 6 different wallpaper edition
Peppermint 6 Home folder symlink on the desktop edition
Peppermint 6 Freddie Frobbleknotts psychedelic smudge edition

:)

[EDIT]

I WAS KIDDING, BTW  :D
(thought I'd better add that before the requests start)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 14, 2015, 09:34:24 am
FFS, this topic is 5 days old and there's already been another 2 editions, fluxbox on the 10th and JWM on the 13th ::)

Seriously, FIX THE ONES YOU HAVE BEFORE MAKING MORE!!   >:(

 ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: darknet on October 14, 2015, 09:44:17 am
^ +1
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: darknet on October 27, 2015, 10:09:11 am
and ... here we go again >:( : https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=27824.msg233138#msg233138
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 27, 2015, 10:26:19 am
 :o
(actually I'm not shocked at all ::))
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 27, 2015, 11:13:20 am
Ugh, Enlightenment.  It should not be revived.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 27, 2015, 11:49:52 am
Yeah I was never a fan of Enlightenment .. it got a lot of press a while back so I tested it, and sure it had some good features (I'd love to get their terminal "terminology" fully functional under Peppermint), but as an overall UX it drove me nuts
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 27, 2015, 01:18:18 pm
I don't remember the specific beef I had with it (E17) but I remember not liking the UI at all.  If i remember correctly, several things didn't work.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: Slim.Fatz on October 28, 2015, 02:27:20 am
I don't remember the specific beef I had with it (E17) but I remember not liking the UI at all.  If i remember correctly, several things didn't work.

Yeah, the same with me. Personally, I don't care that much for the general appearance either. But the many hoops I had to jump through to get it all working -- that was ridiculous.  ::)

Give me Peppermint Six anytime!

Regards,

-- Slim
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: zebedeeboss on October 28, 2015, 04:02:01 am
Bodhi Linux is about as good as E17-19 gets and even they have now forked their own desktop as they didn't like the way E19 was going.

Wayyyyyyyyy to fussy for me and having to dig down thorugh 4/5/6 levels of menu to get to what I want - crazy...   Looks pretty and is pretty quick...  but will never have a place on my SSD
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 28, 2015, 10:08:40 am
Bodhi Linux is about as good as E17-19 gets and even they have now forked their own desktop as they didn't like the way E19 was going.

Wayyyyyyyyy to fussy for me and having to dig down thorugh 4/5/6 levels of menu to get to what I want - crazy...   Looks pretty and is pretty quick...  but will never have a place on my SSD
Agreed, I tried Bodhi Linux ages ago.  The whole experience lasted about 20mins.  I couldn't cope with all the effort for a very small result.  I also didn't like the Toy Town look and feel.  It's a clever concept, I'll give it that.  It's just not for me  ;).
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: scifidude79 on October 28, 2015, 12:00:56 pm
I tried Bodhi several years ago and had issues with getting my Nvidia driver installed.  The individual who runs it gave me some snarky remark in reply to my issue, so I'll never touch it again no matter what DE he uses.  But, that was the one where I tried E17, along with one or two other distros whose names elude me.  Now that I see the comments of others, I think that's why I didn't like it as well.  Too many UI layers and too much work to try to get it working.  In my opinion, an OS should work from the start, like Peppermint does.  Similarly, I don't like Manjaro because I've had nothing but issues running it.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: darknet on October 29, 2015, 04:41:04 am
and here we go again >:(....: http://sourceforge.net/projects/manjaro-deepin/?source=navbar  :o
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 29, 2015, 04:58:54 am
Crazy eh!  You'd think they'd want to iron out the bugs in their official releases, before bombarding everyone with their buggy community releases.  It really makes no sense to me and unfortunately, it's making the devs at Manjaro look stupid  :-\.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: darknet on October 29, 2015, 05:13:47 am
Crazy eh!  You'd think they'd want to iron out the bugs in their official releases, before bombarding everyone with their buggy community releases.  It really makes no sense to me and unfortunately, it's making the devs at Manjaro look stupid  :-\.
totally agree with you AndyInMokum, i was once in the manjaro-sea but i am glad i have moved to the PM
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: perknh on December 11, 2015, 06:24:14 am
Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?

To achieve stability --maybe eight?  ;)

https://manjaro.github.io/Update-2015-11-30_(stable)/ (https://manjaro.github.io/Update-2015-11-30_(stable)/)

Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: darthlukan on December 28, 2015, 09:19:35 pm
Having a bunch of ISOs is counter-intuitive IMO. You'll never please everyone so there's no point in making additional work for yourself. To me, it's wiser to pick one GUI that you focus on as the "poster-child" of the distro, and then, if you REALLY want to cater to the "choice" people, have a second ISO that is a GUI-less base ISO.

Example: The GUI-less ISO ("core" from here on out) would have all of the video drivers installed just like on the regular ISO, but no login manager on bootup and no DEs or WMs pre-loaded. Instead, on login, the issue would display describing which command to run to connect WiFi and a list of commands to run for the user's desired GUI.

Code: [Select]
Welcome to Peppermint Core!

If you require a WiFi connection, please run:

$ sudo wifi-menu

and follow the prompts.

Commonly installed Window Managers and Desktop environments:

i3:
$ sudo apt-get install i3

LXDE:
$ sudo apt-get install lxde

KDE/Plasma:
$ sudo apt-get install plasma-desktop (or whatever the meta is)

... And so on ...

You cater to the minimalists out there who want to feel like they are actually building their environment, and you cater to the indecisive and inexperienced by providing them with clear instructions on how to get rolling. Win-win. In the meantime, you're not having to split your attention or build consistent assets across GUIs because you're still only focused on the one ISO, with core being the primary ISO minus the GUI step of the build process. Add a basic issue to /etc/skel if the lsb-release type is "core" and call it a day. No muss, no fuss and everybody walks away at least placated if not happy. :)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: PCNetSpec on December 28, 2015, 10:05:07 pm
That's an idea, but if we remove all the GUI stuff basically you'd be left with Ubuntu core .. though I suppose we could package the peppermint components into a single installable "DE" metapackage in the same way as lxde / xfce4 / etc.

That said, I'm not sure that's the Peppermint target demographic .. Peppermint has always been about new user and Windows convert friendliness, whilst being minimal only as far as preinstalled apps goes.

So I'm with you as far as that's probably what Manjaro should be doing .. and still with you as far as Peppermint sticking with a single DE and attempting to "nail it" .. I just don't think a "core" build is really in line with the Peppermint ethos (at least what it's been to date) ;)
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: Slim.Fatz on December 29, 2015, 04:08:41 am
I personally find that darthlukan's approach is basically just what I would like to have available. The current PeppermintOS appeals to the people PCNetSpec has referred to (M$ converts, people not interested in becoming Geeks, noobies, etc) and this would remain so.

The "core" edition would not only be a relatively easy to create edition (for the PeppermintOS team) but it would also be an easy way to gain a little more "air time" in the media (without going the ridiculous route followed by Manjaro, Puppy, and a few others).

True, the core edition would be little more than the Ubuntu core, but with a little creativity it could easily be made different enough to be worth the effort. Significantly (for me, at least, and I am sure for some others as well) it would not actually be Ubuntu. And, as darthlukan said,
Quote
You cater to the minimalists out there who want to feel like they are actually building their environment.
(which really describes me so perfectly that I have to chuckle about it  :P ).

The PeppermintOS team would really not need to change their public relations approach in any significant way (the Geeks and Wanna-Be-Geeks will read the DistroWatch and other reports about the core edition anyway). So I too see such an approach as a win-win option -- with very little extra effort and much better than producing a bloated PeppermintOS with tons of additional apps.

Regards,

-- Slim
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: darthlukan on December 29, 2015, 08:18:11 am
That's an idea, but if we remove all the GUI stuff basically you'd be left with Ubuntu core .. though I suppose we could package the peppermint components into a single installable "DE" metapackage in the same way as lxde / xfce4 / etc.

That said, I'm not sure that's the Peppermint target demographic .. Peppermint has always been about new user and Windows convert friendliness, whilst being minimal only as far as preinstalled apps goes.

So I'm with you as far as that's probably what Manjaro should be doing .. and still with you as far as Peppermint sticking with a single DE and attempting to "nail it" .. I just don't think a "core" build is really in line with the Peppermint ethos (at least what it's been to date) ;)

Oh trust me, I agree with you wholeheartedly and I wasn't trying to advocate Team Peppermint doing it, I was just using us as an example since it's an easy one to make with us.  Team Peppermint's target demographic is meant to feel safe with Peppermint. One ISO, one set of instructions, a small, consistent footprint and upgrade path, and simple, educational tools and notifications to assist them in becoming familiar with their new candy-clad system.
Title: Re: How many editions of Manjaro do they want ?
Post by: zebedeeboss on January 01, 2016, 11:19:23 am
As far as the topic goes they just need 1 - xfce.  Manjaro 2015.12 is an extremely good distro. Everything works out of the box, blisteringly fast. You don't need anything more. IMHO

However, the Linux Community has proved time and time again, it's all about choice. So if people want to package Manjaro with Budgie, KDE, i3, Deepin   wotever they want; let em.

If it's not right for you don't choose it - simples :D