Peppermint OS Community Forum

General => GNU/Linux Discussion => Topic started by: perknh on October 07, 2015, 06:12:39 pm

Title: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 07, 2015, 06:12:39 pm
Hi Friends,

For months I've been interested in listening to old tales about Ubuntu's good ole days --back in the days of the Ubuntu's "fabled" Maverick 10.10 era.  Even the ghoulish Ubuntu Satanic Edition Live --which was based off of Maverick 10.10 is no longer supported.  So I guess the 10.10 days are gone forever, although it was an era of computing, and Ubuntu, that I'm sorry I missed.

Now, from reading about Ubuntu 14.10, I am assuming the future of Unity LTS will have a re-sizable panel again.  So maybe Unity is slowly moving in the right direction again for its users.  (I don't want to say that too loudly --in case the Unity development team hears of this and changes course. :-X)

Oh, that perennial rumor of Ubuntu selling out to Microsoft --now being called the "Ubuntu Conspiracy."  Sometimes I wonder what Peppermint, and all of the other Ubuntu derivatives, would do if this were to happen.  I imagine we, or they, would probably do just fine by branching off of Debian and Mint. :-\

The Ubuntu Conspiracy

By James Darvell of Linux Journal

http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/ubuntu-conspiracy (http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/ubuntu-conspiracy)

Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 10, 2015, 02:05:59 pm
Fantastic article! thank you for sharing, perknh. If Microsoft ever acquires Canonical, they will surely kill the Ubuntu project or maybe, make it a paid OS :(
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 10, 2015, 05:55:25 pm
Thank you, sk_sarma.

I does sound like a nightmare scenario, doesn't it?  Fortunately, PCNetSpec, who has been following articles such as these for a years, has made a compelling argument to me as to why this scenario would most likely never take place.

PCNetSpec's reasoning as to why a Microsoft takeover of Canonical i unlikely can be found here:

http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,2584.msg25330.html#msg25330 (http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,2584.msg25330.html#msg25330)

And here:

http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,2584.msg25345.html#msg25345 (http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,2584.msg25345.html#msg25345)


Right now smart money goes on PCNetSpec being right, and Microsoft taking a hike! ;)

Needless to say, sk_sarma, I hope Microsoft stays far away from Canonical.  And thank you for reading, and commenting, upon the article I posted.  It is a sad and scary thought though, isn't it?  The whole idea of Microsoft eating up, and then spitting out Canonical, gives me the creeps. 

That really would be a real-life horror story in the always unpredictable world of business.

perknh

Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 10, 2015, 09:04:02 pm
I think PCNetSpec has a solid point. However I didn't know that Canonical is actually losing a lot of money over Ubuntu :( I appreciate Canonical and their efforts.
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 10, 2015, 09:33:07 pm
I think PCNetSpec has a solid point. However I didn't know that Canonical is actually losing a lot of money over Ubuntu :( I appreciate Canonical and their efforts.

Yes, that was news to me too.  I wonder how much money Canonical is losing from Ubuntu's phone project. :-\
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 11, 2015, 12:58:42 am
Canonical should make Ubuntu phone OS similar to CyanogenMod. The Ubuntu ROMs should be released for all major phones. And all users can root their phones and flash the Ubuntu firmware. I think it will be a good start.
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 11, 2015, 09:54:30 am
Canonical should make Ubuntu phone OS similar to CyanogenMod. The Ubuntu ROMs should be released for all major phones. And all users can root their phones and flash the Ubuntu firmware. I think it will be a good start.

Do you think Canonical can break into the phone market now in any meaningful way?  I's love to have an Ubuntu phone, but everything I've read about them says "Don't Buy!'  Besides, I don't know if Ubuntu phones are sold in the U.S. yet.  I've never seen any here.  It's always "Android this, and Apple that" over here.

I'm one of the few people left in the U.S. that still has a dumb phone --and I'm actually happy about it! :)

Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 11, 2015, 10:21:08 am
I really like the look of Ubuntu Phone (OS), from the little I've seen it makes iOS and Android look dated and ties in nicely with Ubuntu's Unity desktop .. problem is I don't like their Unity desktop on a PC, and nobody's explained how well it'll tie in with non Unity desktops (?)

But if I were in the market for a smartphone, I'd probably get one just to be different .. but I guess that half defeats the point of having one, and I so far haven't found any need for one.
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 11, 2015, 10:30:15 am
From what it looks like, Ubuntu phones (it says two Ubuntu phones called Aquaris something) were released in India last year. I just went through this shopping site and I'm surprised to see some good reviews :o

http://m.snapdeal.com/product/bq-aquaris-e5-hd-ubuntu/682122279976
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 11, 2015, 02:20:50 pm
I really like the look of Ubuntu Phone (OS), from the little I've seen it makes iOS and Android look dated and ties in nicely with Ubuntu's Unity desktop .. problem is I don't like their Unity desktop on a PC, and nobody's explained how well it'll tie in with non Unity desktops (?)

If Unity were more customizable, and if we could remove that Scopes nonsense, tracking, and the overabundance of unnecessary programs, would you like Unity then?  If one could customize the panel, and get rid of all that extra junk, don't you think Unity would actually be a great desktop?

I know this might be like asking, if Unity were only completely different, wouldn't you just love it then? ;D 

My problem with Unity is with the panel, and my inability to clean out all those programs that all seem to be tied into one another.  I'd love to see what a lite and cusomizable Unity might be like.  You?
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 11, 2015, 02:39:42 pm
and ditch Dash .. maybe, but then as you say it's no longer Unity is it.
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 11, 2015, 03:00:37 pm
You know the more I look at Ubuntu, the more I think Xubuntu is actually Ubuntu's small and quiet masterpiece --not the Unity DE.

I know MATE is getting some well-deserved limelight these days, but pound for pound Xubuntu is Ubuntu's silent star within their lineup.  Problem is, few people have the patience to customize it, or check it out.  That Whisker Menu sure beats Dash, the panel is customization, and its LCD clock is the best around.

But who knows about Xfce --you, scifidude79, me, and only a handul of others.  Xfce is way more functional than the new Gnome shell.  I say Xfce needs a proper renaissance. ;)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: VinDSL on October 11, 2015, 04:01:37 pm
I'm not sticking up for the Unity DE.  Just saying...

The Canonical devs have been cutting cruft, the past year or so.  Sometimes I forget I'm using it.


(http://vindsl.com/images/2015-10-11-12:49:14-1280x1024-scrot.png)


Add the 'ClassicMenu Indicator' and you'll  have a... Classic Menu   ;)


(http://vindsl.com/images/2015-10-11-12:49:55-1280x1024-scrot.png)


Oh, yeah, 'the cube'.  No need to use the workplace switcher either...


(http://vindsl.com/images/2015-10-11-13:20:59-1280x1024-scrot.png)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 11, 2015, 08:28:34 pm
Hello VinDSL,

Well you sure are able to make Unity look nice.  You use your own conky in order to see the time, and the current weather conditions.  And you have a menu that actually works.

I take it that that is Wily Werewolf and not Trusty you are showing us here.  I ask because I recently took a trip down memory lane back to Precise Pangolin (12.04.5), but it seems that one cannot go back in time very well.  The experience didn't work out so well for me.  My computer moved like mud.

Oh, one other issue I have with Unity is how my computer heats up while running it.  But maybe with a classic menu, I could find a lot of unnecessary programs in order to remove them ---hence cooling things down a bit.

I like the wallpaper.  I'm assuming that that old dead tree was actually found in nature somewhere.  Very, very cool. :)

VinDSL, thank you for showing us what can be done with Unity with knowledge, experience, and imagination.  You're showing us that Unity is workable --and even on the desktop. ;)

Thank you for that.

perknh
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 11, 2015, 09:33:09 pm
Hi perknh, I also think Xubuntu is the star of the Ubuntu stable.  Mate is really nice and all.  It still worries me that it's being built on Gnome 2.  One has to ask, how long can Martin Wimpress and Co maintain it?  Xfce is also old, it just feels more robust.  Uncustomized, it's pig ugly for sure but with some spit and polish, it shines up beautifully.  Yeah, if I was running Ubuntu, it would have to be Xubuntu.  I also like the Whisker Menu and the LCD clock  ;).
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 11, 2015, 10:14:07 pm
Nice customization, VinDSL
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: VinDSL on October 11, 2015, 10:24:35 pm
Thx!  It's just a Ubu test machine, but it's functional...
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: VinDSL on October 11, 2015, 10:30:35 pm
I take it that that is Wily Werewolf and not Trusty you are showing us here[...]

Yep, that's Wily Werewolf.  Pretty soon, it'll be something else.   ;D

I just toolchain it, every time they come out with a new dev branch...
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 12, 2015, 01:00:46 am
Just found this old Ubuntu 10.04 LTS DVD. I booted it up and saw it's working fine.

(http://oi57.tinypic.com/2lstf9d.jpg)

Guys, do y'all think MATE is a viable replacement for GNOME 2?
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: AndyInMokum on October 12, 2015, 02:58:20 am
Hi sk_sarma, we had a discussion about this very subject back in November 2014.  You might find this thread interesting: http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1288.msg11284.html#msg11284 (http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1288.msg11284.html#msg11284)  ;).
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 12, 2015, 03:52:08 am
Thanks Andy. Interesting discussion. :)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 12, 2015, 10:35:30 am
Hi perknh, I also think Xubuntu is the star of the Ubuntu stable.  Mate is really nice and all.  It still worries me that it's being built on Gnome 2.  One has to ask, how long can Martin Wimpress and Co maintain it?  Xfce is also old, it just feels more robust.  Uncustomized, it's pig ugly for sure but with some spit and polish, it shines up beautifully.  Yeah, if I was running Ubuntu, it would have to be Xubuntu.  I also like the Whisker Menu and the LCD clock  ;).

No question about it, it is genuinely ugly when you first install it, but, boy, after a little customization it changes from an ugly duckling to a beautiful swan. (Sorry I had to change species here, Andy; or my description of Xfce would have gone from pig ugly to a beautiful pork roast!)

You can't beat Xfce's whisker menu --which has a search function built into it too!  And it comes with an automatic desktop changer.  And, still, Xfce remains extremely light on resources --just a smidgen heavier than our LXDE-style DE. (And I really do mean a smidgen.)  I'd say Xfce, in general, and Peppermint's style of LXDE in particular, are, pound for pound, the best DEs in the world of LInux today. ;)

P.S.

I like Peppermint's style of menu better than MATE's.  I find things easier in Peppermint's style of menu.
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: aagimob on October 12, 2015, 12:07:48 pm
Hello everyone. I found this article is a bit old, but can be helpful.
https://l3net.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/a-memory-comparison-of-light-linux-desktops/
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 12, 2015, 01:26:13 pm
We're fortunate here to have a great development team, so our LXDE-style DE and will be different than others, and we will always tend to have a DE that is light on system resources.  I feel that LXDE is easier to work with out of the box.  Xfce, on the other hand, demands more customization, but has a few attributes that most of us on the LXDE side of the ledger would not consider too excessive.

But, my goodness, I could cook French toast on my laptop while running Unity --my CPU usage skyrockets that much! (I learned why this was happening to my computer that last night after experimenting with Ubuntu's classic menu --thanks to VinDSL's tip.)  My problem with Unity is with CPU usage, not memory.  However, with either LXDE or Xfce, my computer runs considerably cooler than with Unity, or even with Cinnamon (which is so-so).  Fortunately, I have no CPU or memory problems with either the LXDE or the Xfce desktop environment. :)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 12, 2015, 01:55:57 pm
According to this review, Peppermint consumes the lowest RAM among all top LXDE Distros (others being LXLE and Lubuntu). It also boots up quite fast :)

http://mylinuxexplore.blogspot.in/2014/07/peppermint-os-five-review-move-over.html


Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 12, 2015, 02:12:53 pm
According to this review, Peppermint consumes the lowest RAM among all top LXDE Distros (others being LXLE and Lubuntu). It also boots up quite fast :)

Peppermint 5 and Peppermint 6 are two of the best distributions I've ever seen in my life.  They're fast, stable, secure, light on system resources, and supported by experts.  Add to this that these distributions are free, and that the forums are both informative and fun. 

I really don't know now it can can get much better than this! ;)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 12, 2015, 02:26:51 pm

Peppermint 5 and Peppermint 6 are two of the best distributions I've ever seen in my life.  They're fast, stable, secure, light on system resources, and supported by experts.  Add to this that these distributions are free, and that the forums are both informative and fun. 

I really don't know now it can can get much better than this! ;)

Well said :)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: Slim.Fatz on October 12, 2015, 03:07:07 pm
According to this review, Peppermint consumes the lowest RAM among all top LXDE Distros (others being LXLE and Lubuntu). It also boots up quite fast :)

Peppermint 5 and Peppermint 6 are two of the best distributions I've ever seen in my life.  They're fast, stable, secure, light on system resources, and supported by experts.  Add to this that these distributions are free, and that the forums are both informative and fun. 

I really don't know now it can can get much better than this! ;)

Hi perknh,

You have nicely stated my reasons for using PeppermintOS as my workhorse distro. I've fooled around with many distros in the last 10-15 years. The only other distro I now have on my boxes is Arch -- installed via ArchBang some years ago. But it's not even close to PeppermintOS, in my opinion.

I started with, as I recall Peppermint ICE and your comment is the reason why I have stayed with it as my workhorse: The best distro I have ever seen/experienced, fast, stable, secure, light on system resources, supported by experts and the forums are informative, friendly and fun.

It's as simple as 1+1, if you ask me.

Regards,

-- Slim
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 12, 2015, 04:24:22 pm
You have nicely stated my reasons for using PeppermintOS as my workhorse distro. I've fooled around with many distros in the last 10-15 years. The only other distro I now have on my boxes is Arch -- installed via ArchBang some years ago. But it's not even close to PeppermintOS, in my opinion.

I started with, as I recall Peppermint ICE and your comment is the reason why I have stayed with it as my workhorse: The best distro I have ever seen/experienced, fast, stable, secure, light on system resources, supported by experts and the forums are informative, friendly and fun.

It's as simple as 1+1, if you ask me.

Regards,

-- Slim

Hello sk_sarma and Slim.Fatz,

I agree with your observations here.

Peppermint Linux OS is my workhorse, my neighbors workhorse, and my wife's too.  For whatever reason(s), Peppermint Linux OS is still one of best kept secrets in the world of Linux. :-\  And, if the Windows folks only knew how good we were, we wouldn't be able to handle all the crowds rushing to us. 

Fortunately, we've dodged that bullet so far! :) 

I like us just the way we are. ;)

perknh


Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 12, 2015, 04:30:24 pm
I am waiting for the day when this secret is unveiled. We will see an exodus of people from Windows to Peppermint ;)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: darknet on October 12, 2015, 04:50:39 pm
I am waiting for the day when this secret is unveiled. We will see an exodus of people from Windows to Peppermint ;)
Or from other linux-distro's, like me i am a linux-user since 2007 and just discovered this great os called peppermint ;)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: sskarma on October 12, 2015, 08:49:08 pm
Or from other linux-distro's, like me i am a linux-user since 2007 and just discovered this great os called peppermint ;)

I'm 100% sure that is going to happen. :) I just hope that all those Linux reviewers review Peppermint 7 correctly. It's surprising that there are almost no reviews for PM6 (most of them are for PM5). Half of all those reviewers mislead a lot of people calling Peppermint a "chromium clone" and "cloud based OS"
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: VinDSL on October 13, 2015, 12:59:20 am
I learned why this was happening to my computer that last night after experimenting with Ubuntu's classic menu --thanks to VinDSL's tip.

It's very similar to the Peppermint Menu, yes?   ;D

(http://vindsl.com/images/2015-10-12-21:47:33-1280x1024-scrot.png)
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 13, 2015, 06:02:10 am
Yes,it is.  After years of playing around with Unity, I actually began to see what programs were within that distribution.  Using Ubuntu's classic menu within Unity was an eyeopening experience for me.  It also showed me why my wife and I have no business using Unity.  We don't need to use such a large distribution when all we do is visit a few online sites on an ongoing basis.

Too bad there wasn't a Unity Lite. :(
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 13, 2015, 06:02:12 am
Hey Drum .. every time I see your avatar I can't help putting it together with a beer, and sliding back to my youth down the pub

(http://dfreeshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Drum-Blue-Rolling-Tobacco.jpg)    +    (https://beerdoctor.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/bass-ale-sign.gif)

Actually it was Boars Head tobacco and Newcastle Brown Ale, but that doesn't carry the pun so well
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: darknet on October 13, 2015, 06:22:58 am
Hey Drum .. every time I see your avatar I can't help putting it together with a beer, and sliding back to my youth down the pub

(http://dfreeshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Drum-Blue-Rolling-Tobacco.jpg)    +    (https://beerdoctor.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/bass-ale-sign.gif)

Actually it was Boars Head tobacco and Newcastle Brown Ale, but that doesn't carry the pun so well
+1
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: VinDSL on October 13, 2015, 07:14:50 am
It showed me why my wife and I have no business using Unity[...]  Too bad there wasn't a Unity Lite.

There was a 'Unity Lite', if you will.  Unity was originally designed to be used on netbooks.

Wikipedia says it best: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Unity_(user_interface)&oldid=677982860

Quote
Unity is a graphical shell for the GNOME desktop environment developed by Canonical Ltd. for its Ubuntu operating system. Unity debuted in the netbook edition of Ubuntu 10.10. It was initially designed to make more efficient use of space given the limited screen size of netbooks, including, for example, a vertical application switcher called the launcher, and a space-saving horizontal multipurpose top menu bar.[6][7]

Unlike GNOME, KDE Software Compilation, Xfce, or LXDE, Unity is not a collection of applications but is designed to use existing programs.[8]

Unity is part of the Ayatana project, an initiative to improve the user experience within Ubuntu.[9] In addition to Unity, there are Application Indicators and other projects such as MeMenu, the notification system and the application NotifyOSD gathered.

Unity is just a UI, not a DE.  You could actually install it on Peppermint   :D

That's all Canonical did -  they took Gnome 3 and skinned it with the Unity netbook UI.  As a matter of fact, most of the changes that I made to the Unity UI (pictured above) were done in Gnome Shell, not Unity, so called - it's my trade secret. LoL

Speaking of wives - I bought my wife a new-ish computer, last week - HP 6005 Pro SFF (small form factor business machine). It came with winders 7 Pro pre-installed, so I installed Office 2013 Enterprise (I get it for free at work).

Same situation...  winders 7 Pro is okay (think Vista Lite), but OMG !  Microsoft Office 2013 has become a horrible witch's brew.

That's what happens when you try to be all_things_to_all_people.  MS needs to scuttle their Office suite and start all over again.   :P

I read that Office 2016 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Microsoft_Office_2016&oldid=685309225) is even worse...
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 14, 2015, 12:49:34 pm
Quote
Unity is just a UI, not a DE.  You could actually install it on Peppermint   :D --VinDSL

I actually tried doing that right after first discovering Peppermint, but the result wasn't so pretty. :(

I am a little confused on the difference between a user interface and a desktop environment.  From Wikipedia I've learned that a desktop environment uses the concept of desktop metaphor* --meaning it becomes something like to a virtual writing desk for its user.  But, I'm a little hazy when it comes to what a user interface actually is --other than its a way for a human to interact with a machine.** (again, an idea from Wikipedia)   Maybe that is the difference --a UI being much more basic than a DE? :-\

I can see Gnome throughout Unity, though.  That much I can see.

Has Ubuntu's Unity become a witch's brew of sorts?  There's an awful lot under that Unity UI --too much, apparently, for my computer's processor.

VinDSL, it's good you were able to get your wife a small Window 7 computer.  Although you've got Microsoft Office 2013 on it now, there may come a day when your wife's computer goes from Windows to Linux --which would be a natural evolution, of course!  LibreOffice will then be able to offer her an office suite that brings her back to the basics again. ;)

* Source on the idea of the desktop metaphor:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor)

** Source of my understanding of a Graphical User Interface:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface)

Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: PCNetSpec on October 14, 2015, 12:51:48 pm
UI is any GUI you interact with

a DE is a bunch of applications/tools designed to work together to present a unified UI
Title: Re: Where Ubuntu's DE Was and What Changes May Be Coming
Post by: perknh on October 14, 2015, 01:33:56 pm
Thank you, PCNetSpec.  That's helps! :)