Peppermint OS Community Forum

Support => Hardware => Topic started by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 03:40:14 am

Title: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot (SOLVED)
Post by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 03:40:14 am
A folder disappeared on my NTFS partition. I installed Pepppermint 4 with dual boot, and Windows 7 as the other OS. It was after I booted to Windows that this problem happened. What could be the problem?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 02, 2014, 03:56:24 am
Hi nberidze, and welcome to the forum :)

Which folder has disappeared ? .. have you tried running a disk check in Windows ?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 04:59:09 am
I ran a disk check now in Windows. It found many errors. Short version "Some problems were found and fixed." In the long error report by Windows, it says it first deleted three orphan file record segments, then deleted about 20 index entries (naming the files). These files are really disappeared. According to Windows, the files should be in a folder named "Found" somewhere on the disk, but I can't find any such folder.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 05:09:16 am
Peppermint is based on Ubuntu, which is known as very safe and well-maintained. I was very surprised that something like this could happen with an Ubunti-based distro. Irretrievable data loss is a strong discouragement for people against using a system.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 07:12:37 am
Hi nberidze, and welcome to the forum :)

Which folder has disappeared ? .. have you tried running a disk check in Windows ?

I have scanned the disk in Windows, and it found errors. Do you have any idea what the problem could be? Are there any known issues with NTFS in Peppermint OS?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: emegra on May 02, 2014, 08:18:20 am
Quote
Peppermint is based on Ubuntu, which is known as very safe and well-maintained.

That's true

 
Quote
I was very surprised that something like this could happen with an Ubunti-based distro

I'm confused here, Isn't this problem on your Windows partition ??

Quote
Irretrievable data loss is a strong discouragement for people against using a system.

I agree I keep telling people never to use Windows but they will insist  :)
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 09:18:41 am
Quote
I was very surprised that something like this could happen with an Ubunti-based distro

I'm confused here, Isn't this problem on your Windows partition ??

Yes. That is where I save my work, so it can be accessed by both OSes.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 02, 2014, 10:05:52 am
Quote from: nberidze
I have scanned the disk in Windows, and it found errors. Do you have any idea what the problem could be? Are there any known issues with NTFS in Peppermint OS?

No  Peppermnt specific problems with NTFS .. indeed the installer, file system tools, and partition manipulation tools are the same as used by Ubuntu/Mint/Lubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/any other Ubuntu based distro.

ANY .. repeat, ANY partition manipulation carries with it a risk of data loss or corruption.

So resizing of the Windows partition to make room for Linux (any Linux) carries a small risk.

Resizing Windows partitions in Windows carries the same risk, and the risk is multiplied if there are already errors on the file system to be resized..

The installer, like any Windows partition manipulation tool attempts to move any data from the end of the partition to be resized towards the beginning of the partition, then move the partition boundary, but if that data it's trying to move is already corrupt issues get magnified.

Before resizing ANY Windows partitions with ANY tool, it's ALWAYS advisable to first run chkdsk in Windows to check the file system for errors then defrag the partition to move any data towards the front of the partition, then preferably run chkdsk again.

These things happen I'm afraid, and it would likely have happened no matter which distro you installed (they all use the same backend tools for partition size manipulation) .. indeed even if you'd have used a Windows tool for partition resizing it highly likely the same thing would have happened .. which is why you should ALWAYS back up data you cannot afford to loose before ANY partition manipulation.



In the root of your C: drive in Windows, are there now any directories with names like found.000, found.001, found.002, etc. ?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 10:28:37 am
But the folder and files (on the NTFS partition) which were lost were created after the disk was partitioned.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: emegra on May 02, 2014, 10:50:47 am
Windows has a search feature have you tried searching for them ?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 02, 2014, 11:03:45 am
IIn the root of your C: drive in Windows, are there now any directories with names like found.000, found.001, found.002, etc. ?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 02, 2014, 12:48:47 pm
IIn the root of your C: drive in Windows, are there now any directories with names like found.000, found.001, found.002, etc. ?

You know, I found such a folder just now. I could not see it when I started this thread. I will look through the content, and report back, hopefully all files are there. But I still don't understand why such a thing could happen. Thanks for comments so far.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 03, 2014, 05:52:22 am
So the files were rescued, and since this one folder is the only thing that was affected I suspect that it had some connection with Wine, as I was running the Windows program JPEGCrops when it happened, and it had output set as the folder which failed.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 03, 2014, 05:54:46 am
If anyone knows of any Linux program which can do the same effective visual cropping as JPEGCrops, it would be good. But also: why did it happen and is there some plausible explanation?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: emegra on May 03, 2014, 06:46:52 am
There are many native Linux programs that can crop jpegs Gimp would be one example but if you don't need anything so sophisticated there are many others that can crop such as Mirage or Shotwell to name a few .

Wherever possible it's always better to use native applications , Wine is ok for those applications that has no Linux alternative but that's really quite rare these days.

I can't give you a plausible explanation for the file corruption perhaps some of the smarter guys can help with that



Graeme
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 03, 2014, 07:11:11 am
Ok, thanks. I installed ntfs-config, which is in the Peppermint package system, and enabled automount for my NTFS partitions. When this folder incident happened, the NTFS partitions didn't mount automatically, I mounted them manually as needed, and that could be a contributing factor to why it happened. Maybe JPEGCrops or some other program tried to access the NTFS partition when it was not mounted, but this is just speculation on my part.

I have tried various Linux programs to crop jpegs, but haven't found any that can offer the ease and speed which JPEGCrops does. If you are involved in publishing, you will know what I mean: You want to crop many photos (fast!) to a certain aspect ratio (not exact pixel size), but at the same time keep a hands-on control over exactly what part of the photos get cropped, so it must be a graphic interface.

Overall, I'm impressed by what people have created with Peppermint OS. It does what I needed, a lightweight Linux. I also looked at AntiX and some others, but Peppermint seemed  most user friendly. Hope also it is rigorous "under the hood".
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 03, 2014, 12:25:59 pm
NTFS file systems aren't Linux native (obviously), so a third party plugin is used for writing (ntfs-3g), it's the same across all Linux distro's .. it is very good at what it does and problems are rare, but you have to accept it's probably not as robust as Windows own NTFS support.

Again I'd expect it to amplify already existing NTFS file system problems, where Windows may be able to work around them .. so if the Windows file system already has minor errors ntfs-3g may make things worse.

On top of that you were using a Windows application to write to a Windows file system, but through first a compatibility layer (WINE),, and then through ntfs-3g.

Personally if I were ever to use a Windows app in WINE, I'd copy any files to be manipulated to Linux partition/file system first, run the Windows app on them, then once finished, copy them back to the Windows partition.

ie. .. take WINE out of the loop as far as copying to the Windows file system goes.

This can't really be a "Peppermint specific" problem .. it's either going to be an ntfs-3g issue, a WINE issue, or an already corrupt file system issue .. or more likely some combination .. there is nothing Peppermint specific involved here.

When getting Linux to deal with Windows (and vice versa) .. probably best try to keep it as simple as possible .. eg.  not letting the Windows app running in WINE directly write back to the Windows partition (as it would need to do this through TWO interpreters if you get my meaning).
And if you're going to use WINE a lot .. check the Windows file system (in Windows) a lot too.

Besides this hiccup, I'm glad you're enjoying Peppermint, and that you managed to recover your files :)
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 04, 2014, 10:33:05 am
Well, I am not sure we have established the cause. I realized that there are more files missing which did not show up in the found-000 folder. Another thing: my installation of Peppermint has crashed two times. I have no idea why, but it is scary when that happens, and the only option is a hard power-off, with the data loss implications that entails.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 04, 2014, 12:07:51 pm
Are you sure you haven't got hardware problems such as bad sectors on the hard drive ?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 04, 2014, 03:40:34 pm
Are you sure you haven't got hardware problems such as bad sectors on the hard drive ?

I had some bad sectors, yes, but this is not unusual?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: rjm65 on May 04, 2014, 03:49:32 pm
Bad sectors means it is time to buy a new hard drive, and use that one as a slave without any operating systems on it....
You can't blame the programs or the operating systems when you are running them on a drive with bad sectors....  :)
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 04, 2014, 04:34:39 pm
Bad sectors means it is time to buy a new hard drive, and use that one as a slave without any operating systems on it....
You can't blame the programs or the operating systems when you are running them on a drive with bad sectors....  :)

Sure, and thanks for all the comments. I've tried a few minimalistic Linux distros, and Peppermint is the one I like the best, as it has the best "look and feel", and is very user friendly. I only have one question to you guys: Is Peppermint a solid Ubuntu system? Or have you modified it? I.e., would I have had the same problems with NTFS - had I been running a standard Ubuntu or Lubuntu?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 04, 2014, 05:03:09 pm
99% of Peppermint is DIRECTLY from the Ubuntu repositories (including both WINE and ntfs-3g) .. so this is HIGHLY likely to have happened in Ubuntu/Lubintu/Xubuntu/Kubuntu/Mint, too.
(nothing in the file system handling is changed by Peppermint)

But as I said, all the NTFS stuff is taken care of by ntfs-3g .. the same as in every other distro that I'm aware of, so this is likely to have happened in ANY distro .. and as it may have been caused by a write to a bad sector that could then not be read, it stands a good chance it would have happened in Windows too.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: AndyInMokum on May 04, 2014, 05:21:52 pm
Hi nberidze, wow you are having a time of it.  I would say  you are going to have problems irrespective of what distro you are using.  Those bad sectors are like a cancer with no cure.  I had recently a 250GB HDD start to show bad sectors.  I had Crunchbang 11 and Peppermint OS Four on it. I couldn't figure out what was up because odd goofy things started to happen.  Bad sectors showed up during a routine Clonezilla backup.   Bought a new 750GB HDD and Clonezilla'd an earlier image onto it. The weirdness stopped immediately.  Hang in there and good luck  ;)!
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 06, 2014, 08:30:33 pm
Again, thanks. The biggest obstacle to leaving Windows for me is that I need to run these applications that mobile companies make to connect with their mobile broadband USB sticks. But there are a few other reasons too. If my 122 bad sectors is causing the problems, it will presumably be solved by replacing the hard disk. But I understand that Linux  has compatibility problems with NTFS. Still, Linux has come a long way - well done.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 07, 2014, 10:18:15 am
Connecting with a mobile dongle is taken care of in NetworkManager.

And as far as I know there's no compatibility issue with NTFS and Linux ???
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 08, 2014, 08:07:43 am
Quote from: PCNetSpec
    Connecting with a mobile dongle is taken care of in NetworkManager.

    And as far as I know there's no compatibility issue with NTFS and Linux ???


Mobile operators publish their own modified applications, which only run in Windows and are the only way to connect to their network. I have tried running such applications in wine, but without success.

NTFS: Please read the earlier post in this thread. Thanks.
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 08, 2014, 09:49:35 am
Quote
Mobile operators publish their own modified applications, which only run in Windows and are the only way to connect to their network. I have tried running such applications in wine, but without success.

NetworkManager can connect to most mobikle operators WITHOUT the need for their software, which after all is only a GUI front end for applying some standard network settings.

Quote
NTFS: Please read the earlier post in this thread. Thanks.

Dude .. you're still assuming this was a problem with Linux's handling of NTFS, as opposed to their being a problem on the file system to begin with.
(or are you under the impression that Windows never suffers file system corruption .. in which case you have to wonder why they include tools to recover from it

There is NO WAY of knowing if this was caused by Windows / ntfs-3g / or WINE .. or any mixture of those, so why so quick to say it's a "linux" compatibility issue ?
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: nberidze on May 08, 2014, 10:04:33 am
I don't know the cause. I asked because of what you wrote earlier, that ntfs-3g is not as robust as Windows own NTFS support and you advised against running a wine application and let it manipulate files on an NTFS partition directly.

The folders disappeared while I was running Linux and they were on an NTFS partition. I haven't noticed files / folders disappearing before using Windows 7. The disk has 122 bad sectors. So, after installing Peppermint OS and trying it for about a week, two folders disappeared. My computer had crashed twice at that time (now three times).
Title: Re: NTFS folder disappeared, dual boot
Post by: PCNetSpec on May 08, 2014, 10:19:59 am
Yes I "advised" against overcomplicating matters in a "better safe than sorry" way .. it doesn't mean there's a compatibility issue.

Bad sectors are bad sectors .. if they're written to (by ANY OS) and it just so happens that the folder boundaries drop on the bad sectors the folder will not be discoverable.

It's contents however may* be recoverable.

Now you "appear" to be blaming system instability on Linux, even though you admit to having hardware issues ?