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Author Topic: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?  (Read 716 times)

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Offline The Omen

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2020, 05:43:16 pm »
Hi good people,

Im still a "wet behind the ears" kid here as I am reminded of every so often by "He who shall not be Named".

Even I, with my very limited knowledge, found that watching the video was very painful.

When i saw that person go right off in the terminal not really even trying to explain properly to any newbie like me what the heck he was trying to do or prove, just looked like someone trying to show off that he was something that i KNOW he is not, (some sort of expert).

I stopped watching at this point knowing it was going to be a real waste of my time.

For what my opinion is worth,

The Omen

Offline windrose

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2020, 07:57:43 pm »
Wait a minute....the fellow who produced the video "English Bob" is on the Forum where there are people he is conflicted with asking for opinion :o :o?? WTF!

Windrose,  EB is just pointing out a YouTube video he found - he did not make it.  Go watch the video in YouTube and not in here.  You will see who made it.

Regards Zeb...

My apologies to English Bob ...just rewatched and it seems he has some type of Linux Educational series he produces but he seems to be looking for "Likes and Subscribers" His curser was jumping around so much it was difficult to see what he was actually wanting to show..

Offline Bigoeuf

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2020, 10:56:42 pm »
Hello
I started this response to this topic before I learnt of Mark's passing but still feel I ought to contribute as I have an opinion & think I understand the crux of what 'Learn Linux' is saying about the elephant in the room - the 777 permissions problem - I think the rest has been pretty much covered by Zeb & quite frankly, IMHO, is:

    "Much ado about nothing" William Shakespeare


Firstly I have no reason to doubt his assertion that the file:
Code: [Select]
gnome-desktop-item-edit
exists at:
 
Code: [Select]
/usr/bin

with root:root ownership & 777 permissions on Pepp 10 - but has anybody checked?
(There are no such issues for me here on Pepp 7).

He correctly demonstrates in his video - due to the 777 permissions - he was able to open, edit & save the file without needing to use elevated privelages (sudo or su), & subsequently was then able to execute the newly saved file (with the newly edited & saved command), again without needing to use elevated privelages, & the Folder/Directory he created was duly deleted.

However this Folder/Directory he created was in the Home user space (Home Directory) & not in the Root user space, which would, from my testing require super user privileges to execute - I stand to be corrected, but if I am correct then yes it may certainly affect the Home directory (recursively) but wouldn't the Root user space.

Obviously this still isn't good & in the absence of any other suggestions may I offer changing the permissions of the offending file to 755, which is pretty standard for executables in such locations:

Code: [Select]
sudo chmod 755 /usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit
This would certainly mitigate against this permissions issue but people would need to report if they notice any adverse effects (which quite frankly I doubt). Perhaps would of been helpful if 'Learn Linux' had perhaps suggested a solution to this "significant security issue" - I'm sure its well within his cerebral capacity - but I don't think it was his motivation with this video (see below).


I have watched a fair few of his YouTube videos. I have been impressed & find them educational & have indeed used some of his code.
He is obviously clever & knowledgeable & also productive. His interest is more aligned to programming, minimalism & efficiency (he has/had a script to Simplify Ubuntu that allows the user to strip out undesired 'cruft' from a standard Ubuntu install for example) - all kudos to him for producing & sharing his knowledge & scripts etc

But Peppermint isn't really like that, it, IMHO is a 'light on its feet' distro with the sound Ubuntu base that has a nice hybrid DE, & for me, just works OOTB.
I can't speak specifically about Pepp 10 re-spin - I'm on Pepp 7 (Ubuntu 16.04 base) which incidentally been pretty much sound as a pound for me over the last 3 years.
I would say Peppermint OS caters for all - from the non too technically gifted of us up, who would just like to use something pretty nimble that gives a nice sound base for expanding in a desired direction & combination - i.e. gaming, office, graphics, audio, video etc. but is also easy to use & maintain.

A lot of the stuff he complains about has been included to try & make it easier for the 'average' user - cover all bases so to speak i.e. as Zeb said about the multiple software managers, without having to delve too much, if at all, into the terminal, which would be a bit of an anathema to 'Learn Linux' aka 'TerminalForLife'.

I don't use the Software Manager, & could quite frankly bin it (I generally use the terminal), but some people might. I do, & will, avoid snaps like the plague, I don't like the ethos - understand it but don't like it.
Other stuff too - Samba & Bluetooth both uninstalled as I have no use for them - same with Printers & Simple Scan, but I have left them installed.
Any other 'excess' software could also be removed - 'Learn Linux' even does it himself in Ubuntu as I've mentioned above.
There are plenty of people that are a fan of ICE, but I'm not, so I removed all the SSB's via the ICE app & uninstalled it - must of taken me all of 5 mins, if that -it really wasn't the end of the world but the way 'Learn Linux' goes on about it you would think it was!


Though I think 'Learn Linux' is pretty bright cookie I also think his intellectual nose got somewhat put out of joint in the forums along the way when he was using Peppermint as I feel he:

     "...doth protest too much" Macbeth

he says while on the forums he experienced invidious behaviour:
     "....sod you!...foul attitude.....childish....obnoxious....not nice people"

but subsequently in his video uses disdainful language & tone of his own:
     "....pissed on everything....a bit of an offence....sloppy"


I've been a forum member since February 2016 & he was Ichy on the forums back in 2016/7. Looking at the the topics he posted under I find it difficult to understand where he gets his 'intense' dislike of our community from?? Maybe he was 'proxying out' his dislike in regard to other forum members 'treatment'? However I don't know of many, if any, complaints?


English Bob commented on this video on YouTube:
     "...maybe you should have reported it on their forums before you slag it off .."

I'm afraid to say Steve I don't think this was the purpose of this video - I think this was an opportunity for him to demonstrate his technical prowess & vent his spleen somewhat - I think he wanted:

      "...his pound of flesh" The Merchant of Venice

for his perceived injurious experience on the forums - but I may be wrong??.


There is a saying my late father use to wheel out now & again:

      "The importance of feelings is directly proportional to the feeling of importance"

I'll let that hang there a while.


As for "sloppiness" it seems 'Learn Linux' is well qualified in that department:

 - his failed attempts at installing & later using Void Linux through lack of attention to the instructions (which incidentally even I have managed - funnily enough by following instructions).

 - In his 'Your Comments!' video (13/01/20) on YouTube he starts by saying:
    "Guess what - I just spent 35 minutes recording a video - this video - another video, but for this purpose - & I hadn't enabled sound in simple screen recorder - ohh my God was that annoying ..."
I bet it was - & also very sloppy - even more so as this occurrence, by his own free admission, isn't unique!

    'People in glass houses...'??

or perhaps my final Shakespeare reference:

     "Better a witty fool, than a foolish wit." Twelfth Night

Think I've said enough now - Turrah.


P.S. I'm not registered on YouTube but if anyone wishes to link this post in a comment under his video feel free.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 08:51:28 am by Bigoeuf »

Offline AndyInMokum

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2020, 12:38:01 am »
Hello
I started this response to this topic before I learnt of Mark's passing but still feel I ought to contribute as I have an opinion & think I understand the crux of what 'Learn Linux' is saying about the elephant in the room - the 777 permissions problem - I think the rest has been pretty much covered by Zeb & quite frankly, IMHO, is:

    "Much ado about nothing" William Shakespeare


Firstly I have no reason to doubt his assertion that the file:
Code: [Select]
gnome-desktop-item-edit
exists at:
 
Code: [Select]
/usr/bin

with root:root ownership & 777 permissions on Pepp 10 - but has anybody checked?
(There are no such issues for me here on Pepp 7).

Yeah, I checked when I saw the video.  He's correct.  The file:
Code: [Select]
/usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit
is set with root ownership and 777 permissions:
Code: [Select]
-rwxrwxrwx  1 root root       80216 mrt  4  2018  gnome-desktop-item-edit
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Offline Bigoeuf

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2020, 01:22:43 am »
Morning Andy
Hope your OK despite the shocking news this week? I don't know if you met Mark 'in the flesh' so to speak but even if not you must have known him very well from on here - very tragic  :(
Thanks for confirming that - now people on Pepp 10 can be aware.
Unless you have any different thoughts I do suggest the course of action I gave in my previous post to sort out this issue - can only see positives from it & now this knowledge of the problem is out 'in the wild' now I suggest sooner rather than later.

Offline Slim.Fatz

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2020, 02:48:57 am »
Hi Bigoeuf,

See my reply. Your observation that the files can only be saved to the user's /home/<username> directory area is the point!! If it were possible to save the new file in, for example, the /usr/share/applications area then there would be trouble and reason for concern. This can only occur when running the app with the sudo command. This is no different than using a text editor to open any system-protected configuration file, making changes to it and where can you save it? Only in your /home/<username> areas!! Trying to save the new file in any system-protected area does not work unless you start the text editor with the sudo command. And the app in question (gnome-desktop-item-edit) is little more than a specialized editor.  ;)


Regards,

-- Slim
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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2020, 11:28:17 pm »
All indications point to /usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit being included within the OS by accident. Basically it appears that Mark was experimenting with it and simply forgot to remove it from the ISO file before release. Generally speaking, every file on the ISO that's not automatically generated by something should be part of a .deb package. This can be tested by running:

Code: [Select]
dpkg -S /path/to/file

In this particular case, /usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit was not being tracked by dpkg, thus indicating that it wasn't supposed to be in the release ISO. That file actually belongs to the gnome-panel package which is not included by default in Peppermint. Also if you install gnome-panel, the file is overwritten by one with the correct permissions.

Anyway, I've just pushed an update to peppermint-system that, when installed, checks to see if /usr/bin/gnome-panel exists and, if not, deletes /usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit. That should resolve the issue for affected users without impacting those who have voluntarily installed gnome-panel.
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Offline Leviticus

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2020, 11:58:12 pm »
It appears, for whatever reason, that he has a personal vendetta against Peppermint or made the video for clickbait.   He never attempted to address the issues in the forum.   Bad form in my opinion.  I guess he has never made a mistake in his life.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 02:41:29 am by Leviticus »

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2020, 11:51:44 am »
It appears, for whatever reason, that he has a personal vendetta against Peppermint or made the video for clickbait.   He never attempted to address the issues in the forum.   Bad form in my opinion.  I guess he has never made a mistake in his life.

My issue with the action taken is that the person responsible for the video made no attempt at responsible disclosure. Generally speaking it's good practice to disclose a vulnerability to the creators/maintainers of a given piece of software first and then release that information publicly either after the issue is fixed or if the issue isn't addressed within a reasonable amount of time. The responsible disclosure model is generally regarded as more ethical than full disclosure and non-disclosure models.

Anyway I think many of the criticisms in the video are valid, even if we have a tendency to disagree with some/most/all of them. For instance he's entitled to not seeing the point of a tool like Ice. Alt+Tab style workflows and separate browser profiles are clearly not a selling point to him in this context and that's perfectly fine.

Another criticism is the pointing out of the numerous redundancies in the system. This is actually a criticism that I have with the operating system and is an area where Mark and I differed in methodologies as to how to approach putting together a system. I've always been of the opinion that there should be no system configuration redundancies exposed to the user by default whereas Mark was always more generous in exposing options. Neither methodology is "wrong" per se, but they appeal to different sorts of users with different ideas as to how best to get things done.

All of that said, I don't think he has a vendetta against the project or anything. He found the distro not to his liking and he found the community not to his liking. The important thing here is how we can use feedback like this to build a better distro and build a better community. I certainly don't agree with everything he said, but many of his criticisms are valid and represent areas where we should at least be asking ourselves if we're doing it the right way. Often I think we'll find that we are, but often I think we'll find that we aren't.
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Offline Bigoeuf

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2020, 12:33:04 pm »
Good Afternoon

@ Leviticus
I believe it was personal see my post above:  https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,9275.msg93706.html#msg93706
it deals with mistake(s) & also "sloppiness" and attitude.

However since he released that video I believe 'Learn Linux' has had somewhat of an 'epiphany' as he subsequently put out another on his channel, 'Our Attitude in the Linux Community', on 19 Jan 2020 in which he expresses his shame of his attitude in 'Let's Be Honest about Peppermint OS 10 Respin'.

He starts by saying that he knew of Mark's passing but not before he put out his 'Let's Be Honest about Peppermint OS 10 Respin' video. As far as I see this can only be correct - he put out the video on 12 Jan 2020 & Mark's passing was announced on the forum on 14 Jan 2020, which was the earliest time it was divulged, as far as I'm aware.

He mentions the "..security flaw.." which is valid, but the fundamental thing with 'Our Attitude in the Linux Community' is his reproach-fullness, with talk of respect & legacy & honesty.

Although he says at the end of 'Our Attitude in the Linux Community'    "....this thing with Mark has got me thinking...."
regarding his change in attitude I'm also making an educated guess that he has read my post:  https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,9275.msg93706.html#msg93706
 because quite early on in his video he uses the phrase 'Elephant in the room' a couple of times which is the same phrase I used near the beginning of my post. If so, & my post has some bearing on his 'epiphany', then I'm glad, not in a vitriolic way but in a positive awareness way.

Quote
My issue with the action taken is that the person responsible for the video made no attempt at responsible disclosure. Generally speaking it's good practice to disclose a vulnerability to the creators/maintainers of a given piece of software first and then release that information publicly either after the issue is fixed or if the issue isn't addressed within a reasonable amount of time. The responsible disclosure model is generally regarded as more ethical than full disclosure and non-disclosure models.
Quote
I certainly don't agree with everything he said, but many of his criticisms are valid and represent areas where we should at least be asking ourselves if we're doing it the right way.

Yes agree with those points kendall but I think his attitude in his 'Let's Be Honest about Peppermint OS 10 Respin' video 'coloured' how, & maybe why, it was produced - something that 'Learn Linux' has acknowledged with 'Our Attitude in the Linux Community'

As I mentioned in my post I respect his talent & the fact that he produces & shares his knowledge & scripts etc with the community. I stand by that & all else I put in that post too, including him pointing out the the 777 permissions problem on /usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit - although I think it should of been done in a more responsible way as kendall mentioned.
However I appreciate his contrition in his 'Our Attitude in the Linux Community' video - perhaps we can move forward with a spirit of reconciliation.  :)

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2020, 01:16:03 pm »
As I mentioned in my post I respect his talent & the fact that he produces & shares his knowledge & scripts etc with the community. I stand by that & all else I put in that post too, including him pointing out the the 777 permissions problem on /usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit - although I think it should of been done in a more responsible way as kendall mentioned.
However I appreciate his contrition in his 'Our Attitude in the Linux Community' video - perhaps we can move forward with a spirit of reconciliation.  :)

Thank you for bringing the second video to my attention; I've just finished it. I really appreciate that he recognized shortcomings in how he presented the first video. I guess what's important here is not that mistakes were made, but that both parties moved to correct their respective mistakes. I'm also firmly of the opinion that not forgiving his mistake would be one in and of itself.
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Offline Fritz74

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2020, 03:09:42 pm »
This review was certainly not nice, but "Learn Linux" pointing out the permissions issue of the file /usr/bin/gnome-desktop-item-edit was a little step forward for my Linux knowledge, because it showed me how a guest user could freely change files on the system.

Everybody makes some mistakes. There is no shame in that.

His other points seem to be just a matter of taste. I'm not using ice either, but I still like Peppermint and the community here. :)

Offline AndyInMokum

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Re: Pepp 10 P.....d all over how factual is this video?
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2020, 10:28:58 pm »
Quote
...Another criticism is the pointing out of the numerous redundancies in the system. This is actually a criticism that I have with the operating system and is an area where Mark and I differed in methodologies as to how to approach putting together a system. I've always been of the opinion that there should be no system configuration redundancies exposed to the user by default whereas Mark was always more generous in exposing options. Neither methodology is "wrong" per se, but they appeal to different sorts of users with different ideas as to how best to get things done.

I totally endorse with Kendall's observation.

Quote
All of that said, I don't think he has a vendetta against the project or anything. He found the distro not to his liking and he found the community not to his liking. The important thing here is how we can use feedback like this to build a better distro and build a better community. I certainly don't agree with everything he said, but many of his criticisms are valid and represent areas where we should at least be asking ourselves if we're doing it the right way. Often I think we'll find that we are, but often I think we'll find that we aren't.

Again, I totally agree with Kendall.  People are entitled to their views and more power to them.  However, there is no way we're going to please everyone.  However, it's up to us to listen and use criticism positively.  We can only do this by working cohesively, to make Peppermint even better and more accessible, to more people.
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