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Author Topic: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10  (Read 1073 times)

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Offline rickc

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2019, 02:32:05 pm »
Quick thankyou for p10.  I've installed it onto a memory stick for my son so he can privately use his work laptop while at work.  Think he just plays old games on steam and checks his emails etc.  He loves it! Performance is good,

I'm still using 9, will do a fresh install when 10.5 comes out

I tend not to post anymore, largely because the OS just works so I never need help !

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2019, 02:49:25 pm »
Good to see you rickc :)
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Offline 151tom

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2019, 10:39:27 am »
OK I can't decide which I like best P9 or P10. :-\

I installed P9 on a HP Compaq 2007 desktop and OOTB zero complaints as everything is Intel and old Intel and Linux seem to work well together.

I installed P10 on a HP Pavilion 2006 desktop and OOTB zero complaints and almost everything appears to work.

However when I play a movie DVD using Xplayer it stutters quite a bit.

I was under the impression that the proper Nvidia Proprietary Diver would be installed at installation if I checked the box to install third party drivers which I did.

OK this didn't happen so I figured I'd download and install the PPA for Nvidia which I've tried many times in the past only to be disappointed and again I was disappointed which I expected but I figured what the hell.

OK so from there I decided to download the Nvidia Proprietary Diver through Synaptic Package Manager and it did install however left me with 640x480 resolution so again disappointed.

I did a complete new install of P10 on the HP Pavilion 2006 desktop and accept the fact that the developers don't seem to want to make the proprietary drivers from previous kernels support the new / newer kernels.

I find this to be frustrating because this same 13 year HP Pavilion desktop I can install Windows 10 on and use a Windows Vista graphics driver which installs and runs without problems although isn't supported by Windows 10.

I noticed that new Linux distros don't seem to support some of the needed proprietary drivers which always seemed to be available in recent past Linux distros.

This kinda makes the old Linux motto of "Linux Gives New Life To Old Computers" a thing of the past.

OH well it is what it is and I'm tired of reinstalling my Linux distro trying to make the impossible possible.  :(

Both P9 and P10 work OK on these two old outdated desktops and I can live with the no Nvidia proprietary driver and play DVDs on a different desktop which doesn't need any proprietary driver.

Just another reason to not own any Nvidia products if using Linux.

Please don't misunderstand me, I still think Linux is a good choice although I'm really understanding new Linux users frustration with the lack of driver support.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 11:05:17 am by 151tom »

Offline Slim.Fatz

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2019, 12:06:57 pm »
Just another reason to not own any Nvidia products if using Linux.


Hi 151tom,
You hit the nail squarely on its proverbial head !! What Nvidia does seems to be only good for Window$ and it's a poker shot if you use Linux.  ;)


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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2019, 01:55:13 pm »
You didn't mention which nvidia card you have ?

Also if you require technical assistance, can you start a new topic with a descriptive title please.
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Offline 151tom

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2019, 05:45:46 pm »
You didn't mention which nvidia card you have ?
Here's the computer.
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)

Code: [Select]

thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $ inxi -Fxz
System:    Host: hp-pavilion-d4650y Kernel: 5.0.0-29-generic x86_64 bits: 64 gcc: 7.4.0 Desktop: N/A
           Distro: Peppermint Ten
Machine:   Device: desktop System: HP Pavilion 061 product: RF170AV-ABA d4650y v: 0qm1114CT101BASSW00 serial: N/A
           Mobo: ASUSTek model: Basswood v: 1.05 serial: N/A BIOS: Phoenix v: 3.08 date: 09/18/2006
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core2 6400 (-MCP-) arch: Conroe rev.6 cache: 2048 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 8533
           clock speeds: max: 2133 MHz 1: 1804 MHz 2: 1680 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA G72 [GeForce 7300 LE] bus-ID: 01:00.0
           Display Server: x11 (X.Org 1.20.4 ) drivers: nouveau (unloaded: modesetting,fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1152x720@59.97hz
           OpenGL: renderer: NV46 version: 2.1 Mesa 19.0.8 Direct Render: Yes
Audio:     Card Intel 82801H (ICH8 Family) HD Audio Controller driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k5.0.0-29-generic
Network:   Card: Intel 82562V 10/100 Network Connection driver: e1000e v: 3.2.6-k port: ff00 bus-ID: 00:19.0
           IF: enp0s25 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 120.0GB (7.7% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD1200JD size: 120.0GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 110G used: 8.7G (9%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 59.0C mobo: N/A gpu: 53.0
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 173 Uptime: 1:21 Memory: 651.5/3941.1MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 7.4.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.4.201) inxi: 2.3.56
thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $


[close]

Here's the card.

 NVIDIA G72 [GeForce 7300 LE]

Here's this.
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)

Code: [Select]

thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $ lsmod | grep nouveau
nouveau              1863680  9
mxm_wmi                16384  1 nouveau
wmi                    28672  2 mxm_wmi,nouveau
video                  49152  1 nouveau
ttm                   102400  1 nouveau
drm_kms_helper        180224  1 nouveau
drm                   479232  12 drm_kms_helper,ttm,nouveau
i2c_algo_bit           16384  1 nouveau
thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $


[close]

Tried this.
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)

Code: [Select]

sudo apt-get purge nvidia*

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa

sudo apt-get update

sudo apt-get install nvidia-driver-340


[close]

Also if you require technical assistance, can you start a new topic with a descriptive title please.
Not to sound negative I haven't had any luck with graphics driver PPAs after Xenial Xerus Ubuntu base distros.

Offline clatterfordslim

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2019, 08:55:43 pm »
You didn't mention which nvidia card you have ?
Here's the computer.
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)

Code: [Select]

thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $ inxi -Fxz
System:    Host: hp-pavilion-d4650y Kernel: 5.0.0-29-generic x86_64 bits: 64 gcc: 7.4.0 Desktop: N/A
           Distro: Peppermint Ten
Machine:   Device: desktop System: HP Pavilion 061 product: RF170AV-ABA d4650y v: 0qm1114CT101BASSW00 serial: N/A
           Mobo: ASUSTek model: Basswood v: 1.05 serial: N/A BIOS: Phoenix v: 3.08 date: 09/18/2006
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core2 6400 (-MCP-) arch: Conroe rev.6 cache: 2048 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 8533
           clock speeds: max: 2133 MHz 1: 1804 MHz 2: 1680 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA G72 [GeForce 7300 LE] bus-ID: 01:00.0
           Display Server: x11 (X.Org 1.20.4 ) drivers: nouveau (unloaded: modesetting,fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1152x720@59.97hz
           OpenGL: renderer: NV46 version: 2.1 Mesa 19.0.8 Direct Render: Yes
Audio:     Card Intel 82801H (ICH8 Family) HD Audio Controller driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k5.0.0-29-generic
Network:   Card: Intel 82562V 10/100 Network Connection driver: e1000e v: 3.2.6-k port: ff00 bus-ID: 00:19.0
           IF: enp0s25 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 120.0GB (7.7% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD1200JD size: 120.0GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 110G used: 8.7G (9%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 59.0C mobo: N/A gpu: 53.0
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 173 Uptime: 1:21 Memory: 651.5/3941.1MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 7.4.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.4.201) inxi: 2.3.56
thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $


[close]

Here's the card.

 NVIDIA G72 [GeForce 7300 LE]

Here's this.
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)

Code: [Select]

thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $ lsmod | grep nouveau
nouveau              1863680  9
mxm_wmi                16384  1 nouveau
wmi                    28672  2 mxm_wmi,nouveau
video                  49152  1 nouveau
ttm                   102400  1 nouveau
drm_kms_helper        180224  1 nouveau
drm                   479232  12 drm_kms_helper,ttm,nouveau
i2c_algo_bit           16384  1 nouveau
thomas@hp-pavilion-d4650y ~ $


[close]

Tried this.
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)

Code: [Select]

sudo apt-get purge nvidia*

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa

sudo apt-get update

sudo apt-get install nvidia-driver-340


[close]

Also if you require technical assistance, can you start a new topic with a descriptive title please.
Not to sound negative I haven't had any luck with graphics driver PPAs after Xenial Xerus Ubuntu base distros.

I might not be able to help you out much on the Nvidia front, only to ask did you try installing via Additional Drivers in settings after you added the Graphic Driver PPA?

I can though help you with the drivers needed to watch DVDs out of the box through Media Player/X Player.

I take it you have the drivers already installed? If not here they are

Open Terminal and always add these first or it's what I do after clean install of any Ubuntu Based system.

Code: [Select]
sudo apt install ubuntu-restricted-extras
These automatically download ttf-mscorefonts
Next we're going to install the necessary drivers for DVDs

Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install libdvd-pkg

 
Code: [Select]
First time install, click yes both times activate line below.

Code: [Select]
sudo dpkg-reconfigure libdvd-pkg

Always if you're watching a DVD through X-Player have X-player as your default player.

Code: [Select]
menu/settings/Default Applications for LX-Session

Next after inserting all the above codes and setting XPlayer as your default player
Code: [Select]
Reboot System
A lot of people would argue that you don't need to, but I always do.
Then insert the DVD you wanna watch.
Open
Code: [Select]
Home-Folder
Once film has mounted
Code: [Select]
Left Click Once To Open It
Code: [Select]
Should See Video Audio Folders
On the right hand side should be a sign saying
Code: [Select]
Open/Launch/Watch With Media Player Or Words To That Affect
Code: [Select]
Left Click That Button And Watch Your Movie

Now if you're DVD is still being played jerky or you're having screen tearing issues, see below.

If you're using Intel and the top half of your screen when watching a film or YouTube is trying to catch up with the bottom of your screen??
Then you have screen tearing. I have the answer for you here.

Code: [Select]
On Intel Copy and paste into terminal the 2nd command beginning with echo is all one line.

Line 1
Code: [Select]
sudo mkdir -v /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d

Line 2
Code: [Select]
echo -e 'Section "Device"\n Identifier "Intel Graphics"\n Driver "Intel"\n Option "AccelMethod" "sna"\n Option "TearFree" "true"\nEndSection' | sudo tee /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/20-intel.conf

Code: [Select]
Reboot

Code: [Select]
AMD Anti Screen Tearing

Code: [Select]
In Terminal

Code: [Select]
gksudo xed /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/20-radeon.conf

Code: [Select]
Copy And Paste The Following, then save file

Code: [Select]
Section "Device"
    Identifier "radeon"
    Driver "radeon"
    option "TearFree" "on"
Endsection

Code: [Select]
Finally Reboot System

340 NVIDIA Drivers have never worked in 18.04 from day one I could never ever get them to work. The 396 Drivers should do as I used to run a low profile Nvidia card on the 396, but even in 18.04 they can be bothersome. I agree with you Nvidia drivers in Linux are a pain in the behind with a pitch fork. Windows has better drivers because of money chucked at Nvidia in the first place from Microsoft. That's why we don't have NVIDIA'S GEFORCE-experience program for Nvidia drivers, that they do in Windows. Nothing is meant to be easy here in Linux, simply because we'll end up being like a proprietary system. I'm glad that we are not like that, there are ways around things.

The problem has always been with NVIDIA cards that it needs software to run them, where as with AMD you don't. A majority of AMD Drivers or at least a few scripts are already here, just insert the above code into the AMD/ RADEON part of your operating system and away you go. With NVIDIA it's a whole different ball game, to get rid of screen tearing first you have to have the driver installed, which I must say bumps the size up considerably, when making a backup ISO of your Peppermint OS through Systemback. I have made loads over the years of being with Peppermint and it still works today, even though Systemback is no longer supported, you can download it via Sourceforge. I love the freedom that Linux gives us to do what we want with, we're not driven to stick to one environment or desktop layout either, no security back doors, always have a wonderful time with Linux and I learn something new everyday.

The above scripts I have saved on my external hard drive along with thousands of others and through out my time of using Linux, there is not one of those scripts that are out of date, they still apply today. Linux still maintains itself to be on modern and old hardware, yes you can say and do with a Proprietary system, but when you push Linux to do something like live stream whilst downloading three different operating systems at the same time and playing a AAA Title through steam, whilst waiting for Operating systems to download. Linux might struggle a little bit, but it will keep going, till it's finished or at least give it a blooming good go. If you tried that on Windows it would gripe and start whining.

People have said to me in the past that Linux does not look that powerful, but believe me when I say Linux has already taken over the world, maybe not on the Desktop, but in cars, GPS, my 2009 Renault Scenic though a pain in the behind, has GTK2 theming on the electronic dashboard, telling you the speed you're going, Fuel, Seat belts on or off, Doors open or Shut, what songs are being played via my USB Car Music drive. The GPS is stupid though because it only runs if the stereo is on. I'm old fashioned and use a map and work out the names of the roads to get to my destination, plus diversions if there is road works. Linux is also looking after everybody's money, all the super computers are running Linux. Also in Fridges though I will have to look that up, but somebody told me that Linux runs Fridges too.
Still before I go I hope to God you don't take this novel of a post the wrong way and my intention was not to sound like you don't know what you're doing or condescending in any way I am just an ordinary Linux User bloke, who loves to try to help if I can
;D     






[/code]
Not only is Peppermint an addictive OS to use.
But so is this Forum :)

Offline 151tom

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2019, 12:02:02 am »
I might not be able to help you out much on the Nvidia front, only to ask did you try installing via Additional Drivers in settings after you added the Graphic Driver PPA?
I went to additional drivers although empty as always.

I can though help you with the drivers needed to watch DVDs out of the box through Media Player/X Player.

I take it you have the drivers already installed? If not here they are

Open Terminal and always add these first or it's what I do after clean install of any Ubuntu Based system.

Code: [Select]
sudo apt install ubuntu-restricted-extras
These automatically download ttf-mscorefonts
Next we're going to install the necessary drivers for DVDs

Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install libdvd-pkg

 
Code: [Select]
First time install, click yes both times activate line below.

Code: [Select]
sudo dpkg-reconfigure libdvd-pkg

Always if you're watching a DVD through X-Player have X-player as your default player.

Code: [Select]
menu/settings/Default Applications for LX-Session

Next after inserting all the above codes and setting XPlayer as your default player
Code: [Select]
Reboot System
A lot of people would argue that you don't need to, but I always do.
Then insert the DVD you wanna watch.
Open
Code: [Select]
Home-Folder
Once film has mounted
Code: [Select]
Left Click Once To Open It
Code: [Select]
Should See Video Audio Folders
On the right hand side should be a sign saying
Code: [Select]
Open/Launch/Watch With Media Player Or Words To That Affect
Code: [Select]
Left Click That Button And Watch Your Movie
Yep done all of that and DVDs do play it just stutters when it plays.

It's a driver issue an the nouveau driver is ok although not good enough on certain Nvidia graphics cards or Nvidia integrated graphics adapters.

I hate Nvidia even when I was using Windows they were problematic garbage then and still problematic garbage now.

The fact that Nvidia refuses to help out with open source drivers makes me hate them more than I hate Intel who has also stuck it to the consumers who bought their crap products they refuse to support. >:(

340 NVIDIA Drivers have never worked in 18.04 from day one I could never ever get them to work. The 396 Drivers should do as I used to run a low profile Nvidia card on the 396, but even in 18.04 they can be bothersome. I agree with you Nvidia drivers in Linux are a pain in the behind with a pitch fork. Windows has better drivers because of money chucked at Nvidia in the first place from Microsoft. That's why we don't have NVIDIA'S GEFORCE-experience program for Nvidia drivers, that they do in Windows. Nothing is meant to be easy here in Linux, simply because we'll end up being like a proprietary system. I'm glad that we are not like that, there are ways around things.
I've never gotten any Nvidia graphics driver to work in any 18.04 Ubuntu based distro although ruined a few distros trying that's why I know it's hopeless.

I can buy a cheap ATI / AMD graphics card that will work OOTB.

The problem has always been with NVIDIA cards that it needs software to run them,

I agree Nvidia needs to have the proprietary drivers for their graphics cards / integrated graphics adapters.
 
Still before I go I hope to God you don't take this novel of a post the wrong way and my intention was not to sound like you don't know what you're doing or condescending in any way I am just an ordinary Linux User bloke, who loves to try to help if I can[/size].  ;D     
It's always good to read other users points of view and hell you never know I might even learn something new or a better way to do something.

I appreciate your effort in offering to help out and no you didn't offend me and you  were not condescending at all and this is what forums are about is sharing the knowledge. :)

Thanks for your help. :)

« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 12:11:24 am by 151tom »

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2019, 01:53:00 pm »
The GeForce Go 7300 require the 304 drivers which are no longer in the repos (support dropped in 2017) .. you'd need to download them directly from nvidia:-

English (US)
https://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/123709

English (GB)
https://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/123846

I can't guarantee if these would compile in Peppermint 9/10 (Ubuntu 18.04) .. but it's where I'd start.
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Offline 151tom

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2019, 03:40:37 pm »
The GeForce Go 7300 require the 304 drivers which are no longer in the repos (support dropped in 2017) .. you'd need to download them directly from nvidia:-

English (US)
https://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/123709

English (GB)
https://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/123846

I can't guarantee if these would compile in Peppermint 9/10 (Ubuntu 18.04) .. but it's where I'd start.
Hello PCNetSpec,

Thanks for the links.

Seems as I remember using the Nvidia 304 driver in Ubuntu  16.04 Xenial Xerus.

I'll have a look and see what all that involves besides patience.  ;D

P10 works on this old beast well OOTB.

It's a drag that Nvidia won't work with the Linux Developers on driver support as AMD / ATI does.


Thanks again.  :)

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2019, 04:56:41 pm »
[EDIT]

Hold off on this for a bit whilst I do some more homework, seems there's a dependency issue with 304 in 18.04 (and therefore PM9/10).
https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/nvidia-304-driver-install-in-18-04/16787/13
and
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-304/+bug/1763648

[END EDIT]

Have you tried adding this PPA
Code: [Select]
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa
then seeing if the 304 drivers become available in "Additional Drivers" ?

304 does seem to be available in there for bionic
https://launchpad.net/~graphics-drivers/+archive/ubuntu/ppa?field.series_filter=bionic
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 05:05:06 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline 151tom

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2019, 05:23:42 pm »
[EDIT]

Hold off on this for a bit whilst I do some more homework, seems there's a dependency issue with 304 in 18.04 (and therefore PM9/10).
https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/nvidia-304-driver-install-in-18-04/16787/13
and
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-304/+bug/1763648

[END EDIT]

OK

Have you tried adding this PPA
Code: [Select]
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa
then seeing if the 304 drivers become available in "Additional Drivers" ?

304 does seem to be available in there for bionic
https://launchpad.net/~graphics-drivers/+archive/ubuntu/ppa?field.series_filter=bionic

I've run this and had the 640X480 resolution.

Spoiler (click here to view / hide)

Code: [Select]

sudo apt-get purge nvidia*

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa

sudo apt-get update

sudo apt-get install nvidia-driver-340


[close]

Offline The Omen

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2019, 05:36:35 pm »
Hi 151tom, i notice that you and Mr.Mark are talking the "304" nvidia driver, when I look into your "spoiler" report with the "640X480 resolution, result, i'm seeing the "340" nvidia driver...does this have any bearing whatsoever with what your trying to solve with Mr. Mark???-304 versus 340???.

Mark did say to look for the "304" in the "additional drivers" found in the "Menu" under "All" software, if that makes any sense or difference here???.

Or maybe im just having a bout of dyslexia with transposing the numbers, lol.

Perhaps after running the first 2 codes that Mark gave you then maybe the final code should be:

 
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install nvidia-driver-304

Rather than the "340" you are showing in your spoiler.

Maybe im wrong and all wet here.

Maybe Mark could tell us if im barking up the wrong tree or what not, lol.

Regards,

The Omen
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 05:54:00 pm by The Omen »

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2019, 05:52:00 pm »
No, you're right @The Omen .. there's a big difference between 304 and 340 .. the Geforce Go 7300 won't work with 340, it requires the earlier 304 driver (which I'm currently looking into for 18.04/PM9/PM10)

[EDIT]

On second thoughts, ignore this posting and hang on for a bit whilst I check something....

[END EDIT]

Maybe try
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get purge nvidia*
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa
sudo apt update
sudo apt install nvidia-304 nvidia-settings
but I'd expect dependency issues.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 06:10:56 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline The Omen

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Re: [Solved] Peppermint 9 vs Peppermint 10
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2019, 05:54:49 pm »
Hi Mark, just edited my previous reply before seeing yours.

Will my code work after the first 2 you provided?

The Omen