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Offline dullblade2

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"update confusion"- SOLVED
« on: February 11, 2019, 07:31:36 am »
 Update Confusion: how to determine which updates are essential ?

 
    After I installed Peppermint 9, I pulled up ‘Update Manager’, the default program of Pep9, and installed a heap of updates.  I continue to install anything with a red exclamation mark in front of it, the security updates.   I wonder about the necessity of installing language packs for languages I do not use.
 
     There are at least 5, count them, separate update programs in Pep9.
Plus for those adept at using the terminal to make changes, updates, etc.;you may not ever have to use any of those 5 programs, which vary in their completeness.
 
      In the default one, ‘Update Manager’, they seem to have eliminated the 2nd column    (usually indicated with a number 1 – 5 ) which tells the package source, which ones are stable and trustworthy.
      Over the years, I used to install everything from 1-3, and leave 4-5 alone. And that seemed to work pretty well.  Can anyone recommend an update strategy or a way to tell if I am installing everything that I am supposed to install ?  Which update program, if any, works the best?


 
  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 01:56:37 pm by dullblade2 »
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We will all learn more and more about less and less, until we know everything about nothing.    But my gratitude is boundless for this community

Offline pin

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 08:42:35 am »
Update levels are a Linux Mint thing. Peppermint follows the upstream, read Ubuntu, recommendations and you should update the levels 4 and 5.
Actually, that's why they were removed, so they wouldn't cause confusion.

Personally, I don't use any update manager and have actually removed them from my system. I kept only Synaptics, because it allows me to search the name of packages I want to install.
I always update using the terminal
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
every two or three days.
And every know and then (like every two or three weeks) I also run
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get autoremove
sudo apt-get autoclean

I like to keep my systems clean, so once every two months or so, I also do
Code: [Select]
rm -r .cache/*
rm -r .thumbnails/normal/*

But, that's just me  ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 08:54:14 am by pin »

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 09:06:50 am »
The old 1-5 'levels' were a Linux Mint policy, but as it's Peppermint policy to install ALL updates (following upstream Ubuntu policy not Mints) we disabled the levels in the update-manager.

PS. I think even Mint have now dropped 'levels' in Mint 19
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Offline dullblade2

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 10:42:06 am »
 :) "update confusion"-SOLVED    A big yes and yes to PCNetSpec and pin, thank you for your on-the-money answers.  That does help and clarifies what I assumed-that the more adept folks use the terminal and forgo the other confusion of trying to do a lot through the programs themselves.  I guess at some point I will have to grow up or grow a pair, and start doing more there.For those who are new and still feeling their way around – I put this together, for what it’s worth.
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)
 
Differentiating the different ways to update and install software in Peppermint 9-
1 & 2 are mint/peppermint                                    3 & 4 are gnome/canonical                                        5 is debian
1.  Software Manager – ‘mintInstall’ - 7.9.6+peppermint9.0.0.1    2007
       this is good for searching for specific programs to install, and lets you refine the categories to help you search for them.
2.  Update Manager - ‘mintUpdate’ - mintUpdate 4.6.7+peppermint9.0.0.0 2007
        this is the default program for updates.  Both Software Manager and Update Manger come from the same basic software and are two sides of the same coin. This program shows in the desktop ‘panel’.
            https://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/mint_main/sarah/main/base/mintinstall

 
3. Software  - (but also install) - 3.28.1 ‘gnome’ program   2016 (named ‘Software’ -  No Icon)
       this provides a simplified gui interface, but a more complete explanation of each individual program, (but without any reviews), as well as an ability to set the sources of your updates.  Perhaps the most ‘recent’ iteration of all the software updating programs.
4.  (GDebi ) Package Installer - 0.9.5.7+nmu2         2005-2009 Canonical Ltd           (No Icon)
        in the ‘about’ section from the help menu, the link to the Website is broken.  But this is argueably  the most complete installer which allows you the maximum control over which packages you choose to install or update.
 https://gdebi.en.uptodown.com/ubuntu

 
5.  Synaptic Package Manager – synatic 0.84.3   Debian       2001-2004 and  2002-2012
     this one may be the oldest to generate out of the Debian universe and it is very thorough, but perhaps geared more toward developers.   A gui is provided, but uses ‘apt-get’ to retrieve packages.
Also this one is demands a sharper learning curve for the ‘new’ user.   Seems everything else is based on this one.
 http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/index.html


If this helps anyone totally new to either linux or Peppermint, that would be great.    Again thanks to all for your answers.


 
[close]
Del l Latitude E6420, Intel core i5-2520M, 32 bit, 2011, fresh 1 TB WD HD, (efi bootloader on /dev/sda2 and rest of drive one partition /dev/sda1-no swap.

We will all learn more and more about less and less, until we know everything about nothing.    But my gratitude is boundless for this community

Offline pin

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2019, 11:35:53 am »
You're most welcome!
There're a few "minor" details, related to flatpak and snaps. Mint update can handle the flatpaks while gnome-software can handle snaps. Hence, both are present  ;)
As I use none (because I don't trust the sources and because I don't like multiple copies of libraries in my system), I don't bother with those.

Don't be afraid of the terminal, its your friend  ;)

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2019, 02:58:08 pm »
I've come to the conclusion there is no way to write down software management instructions for Linux that don't make it appear WAY more confusing and complicated than it actually is.

All I can recommend is "when in doubt, ASK .. the Linux community will help you"

It'll all becomes clear pretty quickly when you actually do it enough :)

And remember, nobody was born knowing how to find, download, and install software in Windows either, that was an acquired skill too .. it's no more difficult in Linux (in fact I think it's GENERALLY easier), it's just different.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 03:02:10 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline dullblade2

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2019, 07:30:19 pm »
you folks are awesome.  ;D going to light up the dark terminal and clear out some libraries.  and try doing my updates from there.  appreciate your encouragement.
one nice thing about the terminal is that it does not do anything except what you ask it to do.  and it is very patient. 
how do I mark my question as 'solved' - on the first post ?
 
and if you glanced at my spoiler, was it accurate about how the 5 different programs break out? 
Del l Latitude E6420, Intel core i5-2520M, 32 bit, 2011, fresh 1 TB WD HD, (efi bootloader on /dev/sda2 and rest of drive one partition /dev/sda1-no swap.

We will all learn more and more about less and less, until we know everything about nothing.    But my gratitude is boundless for this community

Offline Slim.Fatz

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 03:02:10 am »
Hi dullblade2,

To mark your issue as SOLVED go back to the first post in the thread and click on the link Modify (in the upper right corner). When the message editor opens go to the line labelled Subject: and you can add (SOLVED) to the text that is currently there. Then click on the button Post (as usual).

Regards,

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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2019, 06:21:04 am »
Yeah all seems an accurate enough overview.

The only thing I'm not so sure about is this in the "Synaptic" section:-

Quote
Also this one is demands a sharper learning curve for the ‘new’ user.

I'm not saying you're "wrong", but I'd like to point out that when people say things like that it tends to turn new users away from Synaptic .. personally I think Synaptic is the BEST GUI software manager on the planet FULL STOP/PERIOD/BAR NON. It's the one I learned in and I'm glad I did, because as you suggest - understand Synaptic, and you pretty much understand everything you need to know from a GUI perspective, it's also faster than the other GUI front ends because you can install packages in batches, lists ALL available .deb packages, has the ability to manage sources, allows you to choose package versions, and sometimes even 'automagically' fix dependency errors :)

In short Synaptic is WAY more powerful and finer grained than any other GUI package manager .. though not so 'ooh pretty pictures' :))

personally I think it's the one people SHOULD learn.

It's Achilles heal is it doesn't support (or even list) snaps and flatpak's .. it was created WAY before they were dreamt up, but then again I hate those 'spawn of the devil' things with a vengeance anyway :))

Quote
Seems everything else is based on this one.

Is also 'kinda' incorrect, ALL the GUI package managers are really built on top of the 'apt' command which itself sits atop 'dpkg' .. so to FULLY understand any of them, you need to understand apt and dpkg
(if we're going to go down the CLI rabbit hole, there are also other 'package' installer frameworks such as pip, aptitude, etc. .. but they all eventually lead back to the dpkg command usually via apt)



Gnome Software for snaps
Mintinstall for flatpaks
Synaptic for everything else ('proper' .deb packages)
GDebi is just there as a .deb installer, it's not really a package "manager" as such (management is handled by apt)

is basically the reason we include them all.



From the CLI perspective

apt = the .deb package management system they all sit atop.
dpkg = the .deb package installer/handler they all (including apt) use.

and then there's the snap and flatpak commands for the snap/flatpak management.



Trust me, since the introduction of those evil snap/flatpak 'universal package formats', which bit is doing what pretty much confuses the hell outa me too :))
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 07:28:40 am by PCNetSpec »
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Offline pin

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2019, 07:22:06 am »
In short Synaptic is WAY more powerful and finer grained than any other GUI package manager ..

It's Achilles heal is it doesn't support (or even list) snaps and flatpak's ..

Psst, boss... that's a strength and not a weakness of Synaptic  ;)

Offline scifidude79

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2019, 08:35:19 am »
It's Achilles heal is it doesn't support (or even list) snaps and flatpak's .. it was created WAY before they were dreamt up, but then again I hate those 'spawn of the devil' things with a vengeance anyway :))

It's always been my favorite package manager. You just listed one of the newer reasons why I love it.  ;D

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2019, 06:30:35 pm »
You'll not get an argument outa me :)
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Offline dullblade2

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Re: "update confusion"
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2019, 01:54:43 pm »
 :) superb, folks, thank you.   did I mention how excellent I think you all are.  rock on with your bad self.
       I did use the terminal yesterday for updates per "pin's" explanation and PCNetSpec's description/overview was really good.  I wish I could have read that about five years ago.  It would have given me a much better appreciation and approach to the process.  I agree that saying Synaptic demands a little more time might discourage some, but I would not want to sugarcoat it either. 
       I would say; It demands more care in it's use exactly because it is more powerful and comprehensive and fine-grained.   So I would encourage folks to just take their time, feel their way through, and allow for their own particular learning curve to kick in. 
       Speaking from my own ADD mentality, the thing which discouraged me or slowed me down, was Not having some overall picture of how a lot of things were organized, and some guidance on how to approach gaining a handle on all the different moving parts.   When I first came to linux, it was totally bewildering.  For those of us who came to it from the cartoon classic of M$, it is a sea change in how one approaches something.  But I think it is rare to find a layman's guide to anything. 
If you break things down enough into their component parts, they become easier to understand.  Even in surgery.
I'll mark the topic as solved and study on using Synaptic.  Thanks again all.
Del l Latitude E6420, Intel core i5-2520M, 32 bit, 2011, fresh 1 TB WD HD, (efi bootloader on /dev/sda2 and rest of drive one partition /dev/sda1-no swap.

We will all learn more and more about less and less, until we know everything about nothing.    But my gratitude is boundless for this community