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Author Topic: is Linux Mint Junk?(one more update)  (Read 3836 times)

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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 09:03:40 pm »
Oooh playtime tomorrow :)
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Offline scifidude79

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 11:49:04 pm »
hi folks...my main driver IS Linux Mint...started with 18.0 cinnamon and have used each rendition up to the present 18.3 cinnamon...i havent had any of the problems that get reported on the LM forum...why?...i do not use questionable foriegn PPAs...i do not uses multiple desktops...i do not try to put square windows pegs into round linux holes like wine or emulators and the list goes on...likewise i just do not have any problems with my second main computer here at home which is peppermint 8 now updated to 8.5 respin...again NO problems...if you cant guess i believe the reason why is i put the K.I.S.S. on any flavour i use...it simply means Keep It Simple Stupid...like anything else in life, the more we muck things up the more that can go wrong...i run 4 levels in mint for updates as well as peppermint...i keep the 5th level on view so i can see what the level 5 update may be and decide to install them only on a case by case basis...it it happens to be marked "beta" like 4 grubs ive seen i will not download...grub is way too necessary if i have to retreat over a burning bridge (ie) bad kernel update, so i will not use beta anything just incase...i have seen way to much mucking about with problems that some people especially newbies are having and hear them saying its junk...what is necessary is to improve your IT skills BEFORE you start mucking about borking your system...i have been working computers of one sort or another for 45 yrs (now, yep thats right, since the early 70s screwing around with them on my ham radio rigs) and have almost always seen that the main problems people have are either PEBCAK or 1D 10 -T difficulties by newbies also compounding the felony of problems by not using the update manager for their regular updates or kernel updates and security updates from their distros own repositories...DAMIEN

You need to calm down.

It's pretty much common knowledge that an OS dev can't possibly test every hardware config, so there will be problems that will pop up, such as people running updates and having broken systems.  It happens on here from time to time.  I've ran Ubuntu, Mint and Peppermint successfully in the past and present, going all the way back to Ubuntu 9.10, Mint 10 and Peppermint One.  I've never had a major issue that wasn't my fault (I used to break my systems from time to time, but that's the only way we really learn) in any of them.  However, results will vary.  I've had issues with other Linux operating systems, though.  I've had some where I've installed the system and done nothing more than run updates using whatever update manager the OS had, only to have issues just like alynur is having, while others have had no problems at all.  It happens.

Also, alynur didn't say Mint was junk, the topic has a question mark.  The obvious intent here is to ask about the experiences others have had with the OS.

Offline DAMIEN1307

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 12:47:50 am »
hi scifi...relax, im not upset or anything at all...i was just making a general observation that most ( not all ) problems that people have are just usually self inflicted and then they go about thinking the system they are using is junk and is the fault of the distro they are using along with a little impatience because things do not always happen in the time and way they want it too...im really more amused is all...all the distros have their quirks, they just have to find the one that suits them properly...the beauty of linux is one size does not fit all...i have found any number of them really really good, they just have to be patient and LEARN, the difficulties seem to miraculously disappear with the more knowledge that is acquired...so conclusion here is it is not fair to lable any of the distros as "junk" its just that what is right for me or for you may not be right for others and maybe just need a distro thats easier to use for them...every distro ive used, ive taken the time to get to know it and its capabilities and limitations, so its not that something is junk...its just a learning curve...DAMIEN
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:49:38 am by DAMIEN1307 »
ORDO AB CHAO

Offline Crazy Tux

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 05:33:28 am »

Sorry, but you're going to be at odds with a lot of people on this forum over that one.  However, I have a rebuttal argument that literally cannot be countered.

If you've paid attention at all to tech news, you know they've recently found vulnerabilities in all modern CPUs, going back 22 years.  Intel has the worst issues, but AMD and ARM aren't coming away squeaky clean.  There are two forms of attack against this vulnerability, called Meltdown and Spectre.  We've discussed them at length here.  Each one is bad, I can't remember which one affects ARM and AMD, but both can be effective against Intel CPUs.  With these attacks, hackers can find all kinds of things on your system, including passwords, bank info, etc.  The CPU makers are doing nothing about this other than making new "clean" chips, they've left it up to OS devs, specifically kernel devs, to fix this vulnerability in existing chips.  The only way to protect yourself against this vulnerability is with a kernel update.  By default, kernel updates are flagged as level 5 by Mint Update and don't get installed.  By not installing these updates, Mint is leaving all of their users' systems vulnerable to Meltdown and/or Spectre.  Therefore, it's not better than Ubuntu's policy, or ours, in this instance.

I believe that some of you are mixing up 2 things here.  What happens right now with the modern CPU's wasn't known 22 years ago and in my opinion, this has also nothing to do with the update/upgrade policy of Mint. The issue right now is more a hardware issue which  cannot be fixed by any software update/upgrade but can only be fixed by designing CPU's which doesn't have this fault on-board.

You all are hammering on the Meltdown/Spectre issue like it has really really bad influence on any update policy of any distro. Wrong assumption!

What i tried to explain here is that Ubuntu installs all updates/upgrades without compromises which could lead to a broken system or unstable system. Mint however tries to avoid this situations for their users to sort out all updates/upgrades into levels were level 4 and level 5 updates/upgrades are blocked by default  (see the screenshot i whit type of updates).  Read also this blog of Clem Lefebvre: http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2013/11/answering-controversy-stability-vs-security-is-something-you-configure/. hopefully this will explain better.

And again, don't mix up 2 different things..... Today's issue with modern CPU's has nothing to do with Mint's or Ubuntu's update policy......



HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131
Point proven....
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 05:37:01 am by Crazy Tux »

Offline pin

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 06:13:36 am »
The example you gave was most probably due to the patched kernel being released. The Ubuntu servers could have been overloaded and some dependencies got screwed-up or/and in the rush to release the patches, not enough testing was done.
Anyway, yes, at the end of the day this cpu problems should be solved on the hardware level, but do you see Intel shipping free cpu's to billions of users? The kernel patches being released are to try to fix the existing ones and those patches, you would have missed by not allowing level 5 updates.

But, hey... Everyone is free to have his/her own opinion, mine just happens to be different than yours. I always have two kernels installed at any time and if the updated one is buggy, I have always been able to boot the second one. Also, and some people here would disagree, but... on my second machine I run a rolling distro (Void linux) and that never broke either. But, also there I tend to have two kernels at any given time. Sometimes, dependencies could be missing, but it has never been worst than re-running the update a few hours later. In my mind, Mint is a good distro, although it tends to ship with too much software installed by default. That's all!

Oh! Another thing... You could hardly have missed what Mint itself is posting on their web site:
"Linux Kernel
Please use the Update Manager to upgrade your Linux kernel.
The following versions were patched:

    3.13 series (Linux Mint 17 LTS): patched in 3.13.0-139
    3.16 series (LMDE): patched in 3.16.51-3+deb8u1
    4.4 series (Linux Mint 17 HWE and Linux Mint 18 LTS): patched in 4.4.0-108
    4.13 series (Linux Mint 18 HWE): patched in 4.13.0-25
Note: The current HWE series in Linux Mint 18 moved from 4.10 to 4.13.

Some users reported issues with early kernel updates (4.4.0-108 issues in particular were fixed since in 4.4.0-109). We strongly recommend you use Timeshift to create a system snapshot before applying the updates. Timeshift is installed by default in Linux Mint 18.3 and available in the repositories for all Linux Mint 17.x and 18.x releases."


You can read the full text here, https://linuxmint.com/
Just say NO to flatpak and snap!!

Offline zebedeeboss

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 06:20:37 am »

HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131
Point proven....

I have been running the updates as per Peppermint recommendations since June 2015 and can say I have NEVER had a problem.

One post does not tell the whole picture and does not prove any point other than that particular user had a problem.

Regards Zeb...

ps that's the beauty of Linux - you can choose how to run your own system.
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Offline Slim.Fatz

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 08:11:44 am »
I believe that some of you are mixing up 2 things here.  What happens right now with the modern CPU's wasn't known 22 years ago and in my opinion, this has also nothing to do with the update/upgrade policy of Mint.
Hmm, I don't think anyone said that this had anything to do with the update/upgrade policy of Mint::)

The issue right now is more a hardware issue which  cannot be fixed by any software update/upgrade but can only be fixed by designing CPU's which doesn't have this fault on-board.
If that is the case, why are the kernel developers for GNU-Linux, Micro$oft and Apple all working on kernel updates and patches to solve this problem? Are they all idiots and have nothing better to do??  :-\

You all are hammering on the Meltdown/Spectre issue like it has really really bad influence on any update policy of any distro. Wrong assumption!
I think that you are reading the comments incorrectly. No one has claimed that the Meltdown/Spectre issue influences update policies. What is being said is that some update policies are inadequate to deal with certain security-related problems such as we see happening with the Meltdown/Spectre issue.

And again, don't mix up 2 different things..... Today's issue with modern CPU's has nothing to do with Mint's or Ubuntu's update policy......
I see ... so updating or not  to a newer kernel version, patched to reduce (and eventually stop) the security threats posed has nothing to do with the modern CPUs (or the old ones, for that matter)? Then with what exactly does it have to do? You're speaking nonsense here.  :P


HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131
Point proven....
That one problem, as pin and zebedeeboss have pointed out, does not prove your point in any fashion. If it did, then just one post about a successful kernel update would -- according to your logic, prove exactly the opposite ... :-X

Something tells me that you would be better served by just sticking to using Mint and let the rest of us unfortunate mortals face our doom with PeppermintOS.

Regards,

-- Slim
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:14:53 am by Slim.Fatz »
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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2018, 08:54:05 am »
To me this is simple

a) Sure kernel updates can introduce problems for a VERY VERY VERY limited few, but they are pretty much always easily backed out of because thee previous kernel ins't removed.

b) Kernel updates are MUCH more likely to solve problems than introduce them

c) Kernel updates often fix/mitigate security issues (as the latest round of kernel updates are doing with meltdown/spectre).
(it's pointless Crazy Tux saying kernel updates haven't a role here, yes it's a hardware problem, but it's being mitigated via software .. in fact currently it can ONLY be mitigated by a patched kernel and other software, and microcode update .. things that may be held back by Mints default update policy).

d) Both Peppermint AND Mint rely on Ubuntu's upstream repositories, not following their update policy creates a situation where Mint slowly but steadily diverges from a setup that's heavily tested upstream (usually mitigated by their own repo settings and update-manager) .. which is BOUND to introduce issues such as the one alynur is having when "apt-get" is used in place of their update-manager, or where say the repo pinnings/priorities somehow get screwed.

IMHO Mint's update policy makes ZERO sense unless they have FULL control of their repositories, and slowly breaks both itself and peoples systems whilst at the same time *possibly* introducing security issues. It also introduces more opportunity for user activity to cause breakage (where say they manually install something that requires something that was held back by mint-update as a dependency .. that dependency will now get installed making their system diverge both from Ubuntu AND Mint, and possibly less stable than either).

We are Ubuntu based (so are Mint), it makes sense we follow the Ubuntu update policy minimising divergence from upstream testing.

And please stop telling people they're making incorrect assumptions when you have no idea what lead to their assumptions or whether they're correct FOR THEM.

When choosing to use mint-update we had 2 options:-

i) Completely strip out the "Levels" functionality (because disabling level 4 and 5 doesn't fit OUR or upstream policy)

ii) Leave the "Levels" functionality intact, but change the defaults to accept ALL update levels in line with OUR and upstream policy.

We chose the latter because it makes the most sense for most people, but left the CHOICE for users who understood the risks of disabling levels and how to dig themselves out of potential holes.

To suggest Mints defaults are somehow "saner" without understanding the pitfalls, and whilst writing off potential security implications shows a complete lack of understanding of the topic and completely ignores what is probably the root of this topic in the first place.

Mint's defaults are only sane for Mint, and then only if you stick 100% to their repos .. and even then can be problematic. And they hold back things that may actually SOLVE problems all in the name of "stability" which the very existence of this topic (and many many others) calls into question.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:03:28 am by PCNetSpec »
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Offline scifidude79

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2018, 10:23:37 am »
HA! Just found a post of a user who installed level 5!!!!! updates and ended up with an almost broken system: https://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,6431.msg65131.html#msg65131
Point proven....

Actually, that would have happened on Linux Mint too, had they done what the Mint team said to do, which is to update you kernel.

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3496

Kernel updates are level 5 and there's the Mint team saying to use the Update Manager to update the kernel.  So, no point proven.

Offline alynur

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2018, 12:47:02 pm »
hi folks...my main driver IS Linux Mint...started with 18.0 cinnamon and have used each rendition up to the present 18.3 cinnamon...i havent had any of the problems that get reported on the LM forum...why?...i do not use questionable foriegn PPAs...i do not uses multiple desktops...i do not try to put square windows pegs into round linux holes like wine or emulators and the list goes on...likewise i just do not have any problems with my second main computer here at home which is peppermint 8 now updated to 8.5 respin...again NO problems...if you cant guess i believe the reason why is i put the K.I.S.S. on any flavour i use...it simply means Keep It Simple Stupid...like anything else in life, the more we muck things up the more that can go wrong...i run 4 levels in mint for updates as well as peppermint...i keep the 5th level on view so i can see what the level 5 update may be and decide to install them only on a case by case basis...it it happens to be marked "beta" like 4 grubs ive seen i will not download...grub is way too necessary if i have to retreat over a burning bridge (ie) bad kernel update, so i will not use beta anything just incase...i have seen way to much mucking about with problems that some people especially newbies are having and hear them saying its junk...what is necessary is to improve your IT skills BEFORE you start mucking about borking your system...i have been working computers of one sort or another for 45 yrs (now, yep thats right, since the early 70s screwing around with them on my ham radio rigs) and have almost always seen that the main problems people have are either PEBCAK or 1D 10 -T difficulties by newbies also compounding the felony of problems by not using the update manager for their regular updates or kernel updates and security updates from their distros own repositories...DAMIEN

Hi Damien1307, I wish I knew why this Mint is acting the way it is, I've barely been able to get beyond performing the first update, which includes the kernel fixer update, and an install of my DATA partition with symlinks, all in line with published tutorials. Incidentally, I chose the softest of the update choices, so there is no way someone can say I'm borking the system. I didn't even get a chance to install ANY packages from the Software Manager. Like I said, I wish I knew what was going on. One thing is for sure, I have NO problems installing UBUNTU distros, they all work right otb. 
What was I thinking?

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2018, 01:10:23 pm »
alynur .. will it boot the earlier kernel ?
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Offline scifidude79

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 01:11:03 pm »
Yeah, sudo apt-get upgrade does the same thing the Update Manager does, it holds back kernel and other "level 5" upgrades.  You have to run "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" to install everything.  So, the Update Manager probably would have borked the system too.

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2018, 01:12:36 pm »
From what I'm reading some systems seriously don't like these patched kernels, that's why I'm wondering if it'll still boot the stock kernel.
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Offline scifidude79

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 01:16:43 pm »
From what I'm reading some systems seriously don't like these patched kernels, that's why I'm wondering if it'll still boot the stock kernel.

Yeah, I've read that too.  But, that's to be expected when you have a major roll out like this to fix something major.  There's no way they could have tested it on every single system config out there.

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: is Linux Mint Junk?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2018, 01:18:27 pm »
Yup :)
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