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Offline pin

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Systemd
« on: June 13, 2017, 04:58:12 pm »
Ok! I've finally decided to ask this😥
Can someone (as neutral as possible) try to explain what's all the fuss with systemd about?

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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 05:35:15 pm »
The "fuss" it that it breaks tradition with the UNIX philosophy of "do one thing, and do it well"

That UNIX philosophy has meant that we've anded up with some extremely well written tools that are easy to manage and keep secure, but can be strung together to achieve other things.

think of command line utilities such as "ls" and "grep" .. all single purpose utils and good at that single purpose, but they can be strung together to do other things, like:
Code: [Select]
ls ~/ | grep tures

Previous init systems have adhered to a similar philosophy, lots of small parts strung together giving system admins great flexibility  .. systemd is different, it has taken onboard a LOT of other jobs, and over time slowly absorbed more and more.

Another UNIX philosophy it breaks is "all config and log files should be human readable" .. systemd saves a lot of it's logs in binary format, so you need an application to read them.

That's it in a nutshell .. In a lot of peoples opinion it's less flexible than previous init systems, is overly complex and getting more so, presents a single point of failure, and a known attack surface .. it simply has its fingers in too many pies.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 05:41:21 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Re: Systemd
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 06:00:13 am »
Thanks PCNetSpec!
I just wasn't able to really understand why a lot of people despise systemd
There's even a search function in distrowatch labeled "not systemd'...

Once again, thank you.

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 08:47:34 am »
You're most welcome :)

IMHO systemd is a bad solution to a problem that never really existed .. but the reason it's rubbing so many people the wrong way is it was originally envisioned as something to simply initialise other components (an init system), but it has suffered MAJOR 'feature creep' taking over the job of those other components and in doing so becoming overly complex and a single point of failure/attack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Criticism
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:59:39 am by PCNetSpec »
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Re: Systemd
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 11:20:02 am »
Do I read that you are not a big fan of systemd either?
Yet, Peppermint uses systemd.
Is this just because of the Ubuntu base?

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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2017, 11:36:59 am »
I'm still holding judgement...

I **hate** with a vengeance it's breaking of the UNIX philosophies .. but as to how it will turn out "in real world operation", it's still too early to tell.

So currently I'm in the "I probably wish it hadn't happened, but now it has I'll wait and see" camp.

Quote
Is this just because of the Ubuntu base?

Basically YES .. as I said, still waiting to see how it'll turn out in the long run, so for now it's a case of the path of least resistance.
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Re: Systemd
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2017, 02:18:44 pm »
Thanks!
Let's see where it ends up...
My laptop is on Peppermint 7 and I'm very happy with it and with the nice and frendly forum.

I have a couple of machines without hard drive. The it department at my working place removes the HDD's and dumps the rest intact 😂!
So, I open them up disconnect the motherbord battery, wait a few minutes and reconnect the battery... password protection Gone!
Then I customize the bios/uefi boot so it points at the boot loader file on a usb efi partition and I'm ready to boot whatever I want on the usb.

My daughter is running Porteus 3.2.2 kde4 from a 16Gb usb on one machine with an i7 cpu and 10Gb ram. No hard drive! It boots in 30 sec 😁.

I'm testing void linux musl from a 16Gb usb 3.1 on a machine with an i5 cpu and 8Gb ram. Custom booting with grub 2, kernel 4.11.5, again no hard drive. It also boots in about 30 sec.


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« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 06:07:29 am by pin »

Offline murraymint

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2017, 02:47:11 pm »
Wow, have you thought of looking for some solid state drives? Those machines would love them.


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Re: Systemd
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2017, 03:08:18 pm »
Yeap!
But I can't find one bellow 120€ here in Sweden. I'm just waiting for a good deal.

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Offline murraymint

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 03:17:23 pm »
I've been browser-window-shopping SSDs myself, wondering where the best value is. Some of the brands are just unknown, I'm not sure I'd trust them.

Offline pin

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2017, 04:15:56 pm »
There's another issue as well.
Although the cpu's are great and I can get loads of ram chips, the machines are rather old. Four years old minimum, that means rather heavy (over 2Kg) laptops. So I don't want to invest that much. Although, just thinking... I could get five or six cpu's from the garbage and have them as spare parts for future use. You never know when you might need an extra one.

Back to your comment!
You are right. There's stuff out there that I've never heard about. The price I mentioned was for a Samsung SSD. I guess I could get a Kingston SSD now for half of that price.

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Offline murraymint

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2017, 04:56:28 pm »
If they're unlimited, you could give one to everyone on your street. Yeah, they might not be the most portable but I bet they fly, especially with SSDs.  ;)


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Re: Systemd
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2017, 05:07:41 pm »
Not unlimited...
I got two to work. Maybe I could get one more working. After that is only junk with broken wifi chips or non-functional touch pads or something else... not working.

I will eventually get a SSD just checking when a good deal shows up 😆

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Offline Bigoeuf

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Re: Systemd
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2017, 07:35:01 am »
I agree with all those points you make Mark. I would like to not have systemd in Peppermint OS but that is impossible due to the Ubuntu base (unless there is a fundamental re-think by Conical - but I doubt that as all the major distros have adopted it). However I have dabbled in the non-systemd world & installed Miyolinux (Miyo - is simply an acronym for "make it your own") on another partition & it works quite nicely too (for my purposes anyway).
Its Devuan based (the non-systemd fork of Debian) - quite a minimal iso (493mb for 64bit - 502mb for 32bit) with an Openbox DE so 'light on its feet', although I have done the LXDE install as per the devs instructions ( nice & light still) - good to run on my aging hardware (although that looks very likely to change imminently ;) )
Don't know if a Devuan base is something that you would look at if ever you decided to move Peppermint OS away from systemd?
I cant speak for other Devuan based OS's but Miyolinux runs quite an old kernel (3.16) so that may make it 'unpalatable' anyway :-\