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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2016, 04:09:39 pm »
Yes, but they are "kinda" hidden in synaptic by default.

You can either install from the command line by appending:-
:i386
to a package .. eg.
sudo apt-get install mousepad:i386
(arch specific dependencies such as 32bit libraries are pulled in automagically "as required" when you install a 32bit package)

Or view them in synaptic by clicking the "Architecture" category (button bottom left), then selecting All, arch:all, or arch:i386



If you're asking if we have any 32bit libs PREINSTALLED in 64bit Peppermint .. erm NO, why would we ?, we don't have any 32bit software preinstalled in the 64bit ISO and the minute YOU install something 32bit the 32bit libs required by your package will get pulled in automagically (presuming the package maintainer built the package properly that is).

If Mint have them PREINSTALLED I can only assume they have something installed that required them (WINE maybe ?) .. otherwise they're just BLOAT without a purpose.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 04:23:32 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2016, 05:06:39 pm »
[T]he minute YOU install something 32bit the 32bit libs required by your package will get pulled in automagically (presuming the package maintainer built the package properly that is).

And, if they don't, you can always haxor the control file and repack the .deb ...   LoL !   ;D

Offline Mintmag

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2016, 07:27:12 pm »
Yes, but they are "kinda" hidden in synaptic by default.

You can either install from the command line by appending:-
:i386
to a package .. eg.
sudo apt-get install mousepad:i386
(arch specific dependencies such as 32bit libraries are pulled in automagically "as required" when you install a 32bit package)

Or view them in synaptic by clicking the "Architecture" category (button bottom left), then selecting All, arch:all, or arch:i386



If you're asking if we have any 32bit libs PREINSTALLED in 64bit Peppermint .. erm NO, why would we ?, we don't have any 32bit software preinstalled in the 64bit ISO and the minute YOU install something 32bit the 32bit libs required by your package will get pulled in automagically (presuming the package maintainer built the package properly that is).

If Mint have them PREINSTALLED I can only assume they have something installed that required them (WINE maybe ?) .. otherwise they're just BLOAT without a purpose.

I can't speak for Team Mint, but some programs do need them. For example Trine 2 from GOG.com
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5PLItq4rD2jQzF4RlFZcW5qYWs
However Mint is an officially supported distro by GOG so maybe that has something to do with it.


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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2016, 07:41:38 pm »
Still makes no sense to me .. unless Mint comes with Trine 2 preinstalled.

So Mints policy is to weigh EVERY user down with libraries they may never need :-\ .. I guess that shows the Mint  -->  Peppermint difference then :)

Anything after that is a packaging issue .. whoever makes Trine2 should either package it as a .deb or their binary should propmt for your password then get the dependencies from the repos.

Your/their argument taken to extreme suggests EVERYTHING should be installed by default in case some random third party software needs it .. where it really should be down to the third party software devs to package their software properly, this isn't a "Linux" issue any more than if Adobe decided they couldn't be arsed to provided the required dlls with Photoshop would be a Windows one. ;)

Microsoft don't install every known dll with Windows .. it's down to the third party software devs to supply it (or get it) as part of the installation routine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 07:46:56 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline Mintmag

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2016, 08:05:17 pm »
Still makes no sense to me .. unless Mint comes with Trine 2 preinstalled.

So Mints policy is to weigh EVERY user down with libraries they may never need :-\ .. I guess that shows the Mint  -->  Peppermint difference then :)

Anything after that is a packaging issue .. whoever makes Trine2 should either package it as a .deb or their binary should propmt for your password then get the dependencies from the repos.

Your/their argument taken to extreme suggests EVERYTHING should be installed by default in case some random third party software needs it .. where it really should be down to the third party software devs to package their software properly, this isn't a "Linux" issue any more than if Adobe decided they couldn't be arsed to provided the required dlls with Photoshop would be a Windows one. ;)

Microsoft don't install every known dll with Windows .. it's down to the third party software devs to supply it (or get it) as part of the installation routine.

That's true, I was just using Trine 2 as an example. I'm not sure if Mint comes with all the 32bit libs but I thought it might since Trine 2 works without promting or anything. But again, Mint is officially supported by gog so maybe that pacakged in such a way for that to work.

Quote
Anything after that is a packaging issue .. whoever makes Trine2 should either package it as a .deb or their binary should propmt for your password then get the dependencies from the repos.
They can't do that, GOG has a very strict policy on how things are packaged for distribution.

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2016, 08:19:07 pm »
That's their choice...

But their choice doesn't shift the responsibility to distribution devs .. it's still THEM that are not following accepted installation convention ;)

Peppermints ethos would never allow us to weigh EVERYONE down with 32bit libs in 64bit Peppermint .. remember only stuff that serves a necessary function for the VAST majority gets in ;)

We're not LXLE, we don't chuck everything including the kitchen sink in just on the off-chance someone may want it .. I'm not saying that's "wrong" it obviously suits their users, it's just not the "Peppermint" way.

It also allows me to be lazy as all hell where application choice is concerned :))
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 08:29:23 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2016, 08:22:02 pm »
That's their choice...

But their choice doesn't shift the responsibility to distribution devs .. it's still THEM that are not following accepted convention ;)

Linux wouldn't exist if people just followed the accepted convention :P But yeah but of their DRM free distribution thing. No calling to servers when installing.

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2016, 08:38:07 pm »
When talking about secure installation procedures, Linux wouldn't exists without those conventions .. sure those conventions can be changed but something as core as that needs to be by peer review and approval, not just at the drop of someone's third party hat ;)

I kinda get the "no calling to servers" policy, and I think that's a VERY good call on their part .. but surely that's about making sure the game doesn't download some malicious content from an unknown server that GoG don't get to see .. calls for dependencies FROM THE DEFAULT REPOS:-

a) surely the intent wasn't to stop the OS doing it's normal (and secure) job for no good reason.

and

b) it's not the GAME that makes the request to the default repos server anyway .. it simply needs to tell the OS what it requires, and the OS gets them and installs them ONLY from the repos in its sources.list .. it's not as though the game gets stuff from a third party server.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 08:44:59 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline Mintmag

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2016, 09:22:46 pm »
When talking about secure installation procedures, Linux wouldn't exists without those conventions .. sure those conventions can be changed but something as core as that needs to be by peer review and approval, not just at the drop of someone's third party hat ;)

I kinda get the "no calling to servers" policy, and I think that's a VERY good call on their part .. but surely that's about making sure the game doesn't download some malicious content from an unknown server that GoG don't get to see .. calls for dependencies FROM THE DEFAULT REPOS:-

a) surely the intent wasn't to stop the OS doing it's normal (and secure) job for no good reason.

and

b) it's not the GAME that makes the request to the default repos server anyway .. it simply needs to tell the OS what it requires, and the OS gets them and installs them ONLY from the repos in its sources.list .. it's not as though the game gets stuff from a third party server.

I think it's based on sandboxing (typical exe style of software destruction) more so then security. With Linux software being free and open source sharing dependencies is fine, but for commercial video game production they need to be sandboxed. With GOG games must also be packed in self self sufficient installers. This is all based on my educated guess though.

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2016, 09:39:28 pm »
I personally still see it as a packaging issue...

The game MUST be able to talk to the OS or it wouldn't work right ? .. so all it needs to do is tell the OS what it needs, the OS would then ask your permission and get/install them .. this would all happen outside the game itself, the game never talks to anything other than the OS, and the OS is configured so it can ONLY download from approved repos.

It seems to me they simply can't be bothered .. "Our job is the game, let's just make a binary executable of the game itself and leave dependencies to the users (or the distro) to sort". .. well that's not good enough in Linux any more than it would be in Windows.

It's not a Linux issue, the infrastucture is there to make this easy they're just choosing not to leverage it .. this is how the nVidia proprietary driver binary installer does it, it informs the OS of required dependencies, the OS then goes and gets them from its default repos (after asking your permission of course), the driver doesn't need to come with the dependencies, they are sourced "above board" in the normal efficient and secure way where the package management system is aware of them for tracking/updating/removal/etc..

Simplez... :)

[EDIT]

Well theoretically it's simple, in practice not always so .. there's a tendency for different distro (bases) to have different package names, so the game say requesting "libc6-example" may work in Ubuntu but not Debian who may call it "example-libc6" .. so either the game would have to know to request both, or a better solution would be for all distros to either agree a standardised naming convention for libs or have metapackages with standardised names that pull in THEIR package name.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 09:59:51 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2016, 11:23:01 pm »
I personally still see it as a packaging issue...

The game MUST be able to talk to the OS or it wouldn't work right ? .. so all it needs to do is tell the OS what it needs, the OS would then ask your permission and get/install them .. this would all happen outside the game itself, the game never talks to anything other than the OS, and the OS is configured so it can ONLY download from approved repos.

It seems to me they simply can't be bothered .. "Our job is the game, let's just make a binary executable of the game itself and leave dependencies to the users (or the distro) to sort". .. well that's not good enough in Linux any more than it would be in Windows.

It's not a Linux issue, the infrastucture is there to make this easy they're just choosing not to leverage it .. this is how the nVidia proprietary driver binary installer does it, it informs the OS of required dependencies, the OS then goes and gets them from its default repos (after asking your permission of course), the driver doesn't need to come with the dependencies, they are sourced "above board" in the normal efficient and secure way where the package management system is aware of them for tracking/updating/removal/etc..

Simplez... :)

[EDIT]

Well theoretically it's simple, in practice not always so .. there's a tendency for different distro (bases) to have different package names, so the game say requesting "libc6-example" may work in Ubuntu but not Debian who may call it "example-libc6" .. so either the game would have to know to request both, or a better solution would be for all distros to either agree a standardised naming convention for libs or have metapackages with standardised names that pull in THEIR package name.
I have spoken to one of the devs and he told me that the devs package the game but it must be packaged to GOG standards which also means they have to be sandboxed. Not all Linux programs are sandboxed but there are a few there are. It's mostly companies that do it. However, the .sh installers for the games are totally open source so you could edit them if you wanted but they have to be packaged to a specific way from the website. I really do like the way GOG do things and I can see why they wouldn't personally do that. But then again that might change in the future. Again the installers are open source even if the game itself isn't.

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Re: Peppermint philosophy
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2017, 12:14:35 pm »
Sandboxing the GAME doesn't come into this....

The installation script NEEDS to talk to the OS if only for directory placement and resource allocation, at the same time it could REQUEST dependencies from the OS and the OS would go get them.

If the GAME or the installer script were to go off and download/install the dependencies form non sysadmin approved repos sure that would require stepping outside its sandbox and be a very VERY bad idea .. but that's not what I'm saying .. it's not the GAME or game installer script doing the downloading/installing it's APT which is part of the OS, is TOTALLY independent of the game, and ONLY has access to repos YOU have ALREADY given it permission to access.

This does NOT require breaking out of a sandbox .. it's PURELY leveraging pre-existing OS functionality, which a game HAS to do anyway simply to install/work.

All "sandboxing" means (in this instance) is that the game and it's installer script cannot install/modify anything system-wide (or even outside it's installation directory) .. it is not .. it'd be the OS doing that as a normal function.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 12:20:40 pm by PCNetSpec »
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