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Author Topic: Lenovo Loves Linux (MS now in the clear)  (Read 1828 times)

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Offline acer

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Lenovo Loves Linux (MS now in the clear)
« on: September 21, 2016, 07:54:31 am »
So much so, that they are blocking linux installations on newer hardware from Lenovo/IBM that come with a pre-installation of Windows 10 Signature!

Quote
This is related to the discussion going on Lenovo's forum's about why the SSD is locked in a proprietary RAID mode that Linux doesn't understand. Laptops known to be affected include the Yoga 900 ISK2, Yoga 900S, and Yoga 710S, which all have the same issue according to posts I've read on Lenovo's Linux forum.

I knew MS was up to something when this 'Microsoft Loves Linux' campaign started, introduction of powershell to linux etc..

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/

Edit: (Forum code doesn't seem to work with external HTTPS)

So you can't even dual boot a system  >:(

LENOVO, HELPING THE IT INDUSTRY!

[Edit]: Thread title changed to reflect the culprits, as Microsoft was not to blame in this instance, allbeit unsurprising at the outset with the lack of official statements issued by either party involved.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 07:22:52 am by acer »

Offline scifidude79

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2016, 09:32:55 am »
I knew MS was up to something when this 'Microsoft Loves Linux' campaign started, introduction of powershell to linux etc..

Everyone did.  We were just waiting to see what it was.  Now it all becomes clear.

Offline zebedeeboss

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2016, 10:42:24 am »
Quote
On first blush this seems to be an issue relating to how Lenovo has configured the systems. I can't find any evidence to suggest that Microsoft is trying to "lock" Signature Edition PCs to Windows 10, or making any moves to shut the door on Linux users (using some proprietary RAID mode that even requires Windows 10 users to download and install a separate driver from Lenovo would seem to be an odd way to achieve this).

This alone suggests that the problem is related to how the systems have been configured by Lenovo, and not some shady deal foisted upon them by Microsoft.

Source http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-reportedly-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-signature-edition-pcs/

Regards Zeb...

apologies hit the wrong tags for source
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 12:27:04 pm by zebedeeboss »
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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2016, 12:00:05 pm »
And yet there **seems** to be some evidence that the original BIOS (as would have been ordered by Lenovo) was specifically modified later to hide an option that would allow both reinstallation of Windows, and Linux.

And there's also the **apparent** fact that it was Lenovo themselves (or a representative for them) that posted the reply on the BestBuy site citing the 'deal with Microsoft' as the root cause.

Then there's the **definite** fact that Lenovo haven't responded, nor have Microsoft .. their only response so far seems to have been to try 'moderate' it under the carpet .. if they aren't willing to explain, they can't moan about speculation.

The truth is - nobody but Lenovo and Microsoft **know** whether there's a deal going on here .. so why don't they end the speculation ? .. specially when it was one of their (Lenovo) representatives that brought it up in the first place.



No matter whether Microsoft are involved, this is an unchallenged case of Lenovo locking their systems to (and even from easy reinstallation of) Windows, yet as far as I'm aware not advertising that fact .. if there's a deal NEEDS to be clarified, if Lenovo won't Microsoft should, particularly if they're going to claim "Microsoft Loves Linux".

I know if a manufacturer blamed my company for something that was their fault, I'd IMMEDIATELY move to end the speculation .. wouldn't you ?

IF there is no deal, then maybe the title/tone of this topic should be change to one that only targets Lenovo .. but with the deafening silence from both parties leaving customers feeling rightfully shafted the topic most definitely needs to exist.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 12:23:28 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline scifidude79

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 12:54:14 pm »
Until I hear otherwise, I plan to go on blaming Microsoft and Lenovo. (spread the "love")  Since Microsoft doesn't build computers, they've never been able to control what happens to their software once it's installed onto hardware.  So, they've never been able to completely lock out other operating systems, like Apple has in the past. (remember when you couldn't install Windows on Macs?)  They tried with UEFI, but that didn't work as planned.  I find it hard to believe that Lenovo just happened to come up with this idea to lock their hardware on their own.  I mean, how do they benefit from this?  Once people buy their hardware, the only money to be made from them is through support and repairs.  What OS people are using shouldn't matter to them.  As long as they send it into Lenovo to be serviced, Lenovo is happy.  Furthermore, they're actually risking losing sales over this.  By locking their buyers into Win10, you're limiting what they can do with their computers.  Most people won't care, but power users will.  Why would Lenovo risk losing those sales with nothing to gain?  Not only do I think Microsoft engineered this idea, I think they paid Lenovo to make it happen.  That's the only way this makes sense, as only Microsoft stands to profit from this.

Of course, I could be wrong.  But, if I am, why doesn't Microsoft release a statement, as PCNetSpec said?  Their silence makes the whole thing look shady.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 12:56:26 pm by scifidude79 »

Offline acer

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 01:35:49 pm »
And there's also the **apparent** fact that it was Lenovo themselves (or a representative for them) that posted the reply on the BestBuy site citing the 'deal with Microsoft' as the root cause.

seen here
https://imgur.com/a/7s777

The link for the imgur image came from the Lenovo forum discussion. Message #178 page 18 by DaemonFC below:

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/18

Offline GNULINUX

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 04:59:35 pm »
The ZDNet article mentioned by zebedeeboss is updated!  ;)

Quote
UPDATE 9-21-16 7:25 PDT: Comment from Lenovo:

"To improve system performance, Lenovo is leading an industry trend of adopting RAID on the SSDs in certain product configurations. Lenovo does not intentionally block customers using other operating systems on its devices and is fully committed to providing Linux certifications and installation guidance on a wide range of products -https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426. Unsupported models will rely on Linux operating system vendors releasing new kernel and drivers to support features such as RAID on SSD."

So no Microsoft involvement, just a lack of drivers on Linux's part. Although Lenovo could offer a method for owners to switch the SSD from RAID to AHCI mode to improve compatibility.
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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 05:15:39 pm »
As has been mentioned in the Lenovo forum.....

Even Windows 10 requires the user to either add some software to their ISO .. so if Lenovo aren't supplying a Linux version this **IS** Lenovo locking it to Windows.

There's also the fact that RAID on a laptop with ONLY a single drive is not really any benefit .. and since when is it an "industry trend" ?

and the biggest question .. WHY DID THEY PROACTIVELY DISABLE THE ADVANCED OPTION SCREEN IN THE BIOS which allowed users to set the drive into AHCI mode at their discretion sidestepping this issue in the first place ? .. why remove the user choice ?

Active disabling of that advanced option by Lenovo (without an explanation, and that quote doesn't contain one) looks extremely fishy to me, specially when added to the fact that RAID has no benefit in those laptops as far as I can see.

[EDIT]

I love the way they've spun a ZERO benefit to Windows users that locks out Linux case into a "commitment to Linux" :)

And that quote:-

a) says nothing about why they did it (benefit of the active BIOS modification to ANYONE)
and
b) does NOT state non-involvement by Microsoft.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:29:32 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline zebedeeboss

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2016, 01:49:31 am »
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Offline GNULINUX

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2016, 03:51:51 am »
I love the way they've spun a ZERO benefit to Windows users that locks out Linux case into a "commitment to Linux" :)

Yep, that's exactly what I meant when I posted that quote! Why not just blame it on Linux?
I'm sure "Linux" will fix it but that doesn't make it their "fault"! A perfect example of backwards thinking...  ::)

I think we all know that "M$ doesn't love Linux" and hardware manufacturers just follow the $$$ !
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Offline acer

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2016, 04:45:52 am »
Yes, why would Lenovo use a RAID configuration in a laptop that only has ONE drive (SSD/HDD or Hybrid SSD-HDD) and block users from changing to AHCI mode within BIOS?

RAID is for use in multiple drive situations,(shadow, mirror and stripping IIRC) and by doing this configuration on their laptops inevitably, locks it to Windows.

THERE lies the intention, without a shadow of a doubt. (Windows 10 Signature OS doesn't seem to be the issue)

Shame on you LENOVO (Still barred)  :D


Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2016, 12:04:41 pm »
Quote from: Lenovo
To improve system performance, Lenovo is leading an industry trend of adopting RAID on the SSDs in certain product configurations. Lenovo does not intentionally block customers using other operating systems on its devices and is fully committed to providing Linux certifications and installation guidance on a wide range of products.

Erm, evidence would suggest otherwise :-\

Now I don't know if Microsoft are involved, but I'm still not seeing a straight denial from either party .. it would be trivial for Lenovo to fix via a BIOS update, or indeed simply deny any deal with Microsoft .. so why aren't they ?
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Offline Admiral_Smith

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2016, 04:06:32 pm »
I would not worry about it.  I'm sure in Linux land someone will come up with a "patch" or maybe it will be called a "Crack" to get authorization to install Linux on the new Windows 10 hardware. 

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2016, 08:26:51 pm »
Hrm ...

If you read the backstory on this, it appears that Lenovo is willing and able to make certs available to Linux vendors for unsupported systems.

Linux users just need to wait for a new kernel and drivers that support features, such as RAID on SSD, blah, blah, blah.

And I reading THIS wrong ?  :-\

Offline acer

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Re: Microsoft Loves Linux
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2016, 05:23:55 am »
Why not just issue a Bios update which allows end-users to switch to AHCI from RAID mode? (the option removed at design/configuration stage by Lenovo)

But, there again, I'm not sure of how a Windows 10 installation under 'Raid' mode would adapt/react to 'AHCI' mode post installation though? Anyone..?
It's the first I've heard, to use 'Raid' mode for a single drive..?!  ???

Surely testing is required on the affected hardware by Lenovo unless.. they want to lose customers who wish to dual boot or otherwise.
I'm sure we will all hear something in the near future.