Choose style:

Author Topic: Understanding snaps  (Read 800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline emegra

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1839
  • Karma: 402
  • New Forum User
    • View Profile
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 9 64bit
Understanding snaps
« on: August 23, 2016, 05:30:59 pm »
Recently I've been looking at snap packages and trying to understand the advantages/disadvantages over apt and from what I can see it's win win all the way not just for us Ubuntu/Peppermint users but across the whole Linux spectrum,

Linux has been screaming out for a universal installer for years and snaps could provide that, it benefits developers and users alike and removes one of the biggest obstacles there is to Linux adoption

I know Mark posted recently about snaps and raised some concerns about package sizes and uninstalls leaving behind unwanted files but apt does that as well albeit perhaps not to the same degree but nonetheless it seems to me the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages

but I have a few questions

Am I right in thinking snap packages will be maintained by the individual developers and if so does that mean the latest versions will be available as they are released

ie currently we have Libreoffice 5 in the PM7 repo if Libreoffice 6 was released tomorrow we wouldn't have it available in the repo untill PM8 is released but if I understand correctly with snap packages Libreoffice 6 would be available as soon as it's released no need to wait till PM 8



Graeme

« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 05:34:27 pm by emegra »
If you can keep your head while all around are losing theirs then you're not quite grasping the situation

Offline PCNetSpec

  • Administrator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 24444
  • Karma: 2698
  • "-rw-rw-rw-" .. The Number Of The Beast
    • View Profile
    • PCNetSpec
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 8R, 9, and 9R
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 12:24:39 am »
Old hardware, premium SSD space, dependency efficiency, and packaging peer review be damned right ???

Not to mention there'll be little incentive for software authors to update their software to the latest libraries when they can simply install yet another copy of an old lib .. so in a lot of ways your "new LO version" may actually be more an "old version" in disguise.

I cannot see a single reason we should be going down this path .. and who the heck is "crying out" for a single package format or universal installer anyway ? .. why do you need one when the current proven distro/package maintainer/repo system takes care of it for you in a generally invisible peer reviewed and secure manner ?

Do we REALLY need to be more "windowsy" .. does it REALLY matter that you find it hard to install RPM's when 99% of your software comes pre-packaged as .debs direct from the repos via a package manager anyway.

Besides which this is the wonderful world of Linux/FOSS we're talking about .. they'll never agree between snaps, flatpacks, or some other format anyway.
How is the whole "Xorg needs replacing" thing going as far as unifying the community behind Wayland or Mir ? .. and since when did diversity, competition driven technology, and end USER choice become a bad thing ? ;)

In my eyes the only people to benefit here are the software authors, it sure makes it easier for them but at YOUR expense .. this model is a proven failure (at least for end users) in the Windows world, I know let's emulate it
(along with the Windows registry .. great idea, let's emulate its complexity with systemd and damn the Unix philosophy .. it's all "progress" right ?)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 01:07:20 am by PCNetSpec »
WARNING: You are logged into reality as 'root' .. logging in as 'insane' is the only safe option.

Team Peppermint
PCNetSpec

Online VinDSL

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4948
  • Karma: 898
  • Peppermint Mod
    • View Profile
  • Peppermint version(s): Developmental Builds
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 01:27:25 am »
Looks like 'deadbeef' & 'VLC' are jumping on board ...

LINK:  https://uappexplorer.com/apps?type=snappy&category=media-video

I get the impression that they're trying to get mobile apps to work on the desktop -- but that's a guess.

Really haven't paid much attention to snap.

Online VinDSL

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4948
  • Karma: 898
  • Peppermint Mod
    • View Profile
  • Peppermint version(s): Developmental Builds
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 01:31:06 am »
Interesting read:  http://snapcraft.io/

Hrm ...  https://github.com/ubuntu/snappy-playpen

Oh, why not ?  I see thay have 'plank' in there ...

Spoiler (click here to view / hide)
╭─vindsl@Boogaloo-5 ~ 
╰─➤  git clone https://github.com/ubuntu/snappy-playpen.git     
Cloning into 'snappy-playpen'...
remote: Counting objects: 6167, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (13/13), done.
remote: Total 6167 (delta 6), reused 0 (delta 0), pack-reused 6153
Receiving objects: 100% (6167/6167), 4.87 MiB | 30.00 KiB/s, done.
Resolving deltas: 100% (2925/2925), done.
Checking connectivity... done.
╭─vindsl@Boogaloo-5 ~ 
╰─➤ 
[close]

Hope I'm not up all night, fartin' around with it  ;D
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 01:44:13 am by VinDSL, Reason: Addendum »

Offline emegra

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1839
  • Karma: 402
  • New Forum User
    • View Profile
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 9 64bit
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 01:58:08 am »
Ok I get you're point regarding old hardware/disc space etc but looking forward that's an old problem that's slowly going away disc space is getting cheaper even SSD's are becoming much more affordable these days the same argument could be applied to distros no longer supporting non PAE processors or CD installation media.

Quote
who the heck is "crying out" for a single package format or universal installer anyway ?

to quote Mr Balmer "developers developers developers" and not only developers who are currently supporting Linux and have to package their software for a dozen or more different distro versions & package formats but developers who don't support Linux today but might if they didn't have to go through all that pain.

How often have we heard I would move over to Linux if only I could have Photoshop, Quickbooks or MS Office, I'm not saying a universal installer would make these vendors package for Linux but it might in time and would remove an obstacle that doesn't have to be there, personally other than Quickbooks (which I only use because there simply is no alternative in Linux) I'm not interested in these big proprietary programs and I wouldn't use them even if they were available for LInux but there are many who do want them and might consider moving over to Linux if they could have them

Quote
does it REALLY matter that you find it hard to install RPM's when 99% of your software comes pre-packaged as .debs direct from the repos via a package manager anyway.

but that's not the point it's just as easy to install a RPM or .deb (depending on what distro your running) as it is a snap, what isn't so easy is compiling from source because the program or program version you want hasn't been packaged for your particular distro or distro version

Quote
How is the whole "Xorg needs replacing" thing going as far as unifying the community behind Wayland or Mir right ? .. and since when did diversity, competition driven technology, and end USER choice become a bad thing ?

As a general rule choice is good it's one of the many things I love about Linux but like every rule there are exceptions and it becomes a bad thing when it needlessly complicates things, the Wayland. Mir, x thing is a perfect example, we all make our choices as to what software we use but who cares what display server we use, I see absolutely no advantage to having a choice of display servers any more than 1 display server is too many and the same applies to package formats.

I'm not saying snaps are the perfect solution or that it doesn't need improvement and I take your point about old libs, that's something I never thought about and I don't have an answer to that but in spite of that I still believe the advantages to the Linux world as a whole far outweigh the disadvantages 

Graeme

« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 03:38:00 am by emegra »
If you can keep your head while all around are losing theirs then you're not quite grasping the situation

Offline PCNetSpec

  • Administrator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 24444
  • Karma: 2698
  • "-rw-rw-rw-" .. The Number Of The Beast
    • View Profile
    • PCNetSpec
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 8R, 9, and 9R
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 07:59:16 am »
Nope, there's no reason for a technology that takes us backwards in efficiency .. I for one have been mightily impressed with the way package dependencies are resolved, and the way the repository system is an integral part of Linux security, I'll guarantee snaps/flatpacks will eventually be used to self distribute software with zero oversight.

Quote
there are many who do want them and might consider moving over to Linux if they could have them

I'm fine with these people staying with Windows, they're not reaady for Linux yet anyway .. I DO NOT think we should water down Linux strengths to accommodate them.

Quote
what isn't so easy is compiling from source because the program or program version you want hasn't been packaged for your particular distro or distro version

and how often have you had to compile lately .. or has someone else already done the heavy lifting for both you and the author

Year on year the requirement to compile has diminished and at this point is nearly non existent .. but again I don't see the need to water down one of our strengths simply because of a possible weakness .. fix the damn weakness instead.

Personally I see this as an unecessary divisive tech with zero reason to exist and a HUGE step backwards .. security will weaken, dependency efficiency will be lost, libraries will fragment and Linux will take yet another step towards pleasing the corporations rather than the users.

Show me the mechanism for it attracting devs and software houses ? .. you think somehow they'll all rush to Linux when THEY don't have to package different formats ? .. they ALREADY don't have to package AT ALL, just supply the source code.
(or at worst reach 90% with just .deb and .rpm .. if they want to keep it closed source)

Oh, I see .. you want us to do away with Linux greatest protection and have software with zero oversight distributed as with Windows ?

Watch this turn into a slow erosion of "open source" principals (and the security that comes with them) .. just because they can.

I repeat .. there is NO good reason for this tech to exist, and it WILL cost us.

[EDIT]

Quote
it becomes a bad thing when it needlessly complicates things, the Wayland. Mir, x thing is a perfect example, we all make our choices as to what software we use but who cares what display server we use

I DO .. without these competing techs, how do we decide which is best ? .. NOTHING is always 'best' for all circumstances, and this way of developing things where stuff is forked, competes, and shares/borrows/steals ideas and code snippets has stood the Linux world in good stead for a LONG time, in fact its what MADE Linux.

[EDIT2]

I'd rather see something like an agreed software submission format that allows for **automated** packaging across all package formats keeping the benefits, efficiencies, and security through the enforced ability of oversight of the current system(s), rather than an open invitation to the proprietary world to lumber us with their bad practices to our detriment and at OUR cost .. more efficiency of GOOD practice not less .. just a thought ;)

It's gonna be hard to put forward a good argument why devs and users should switch from Windows to Linux when Linux **IS** Windows don't you think ;)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 10:30:40 am by PCNetSpec »
WARNING: You are logged into reality as 'root' .. logging in as 'insane' is the only safe option.

Team Peppermint
PCNetSpec

Offline emegra

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1839
  • Karma: 402
  • New Forum User
    • View Profile
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 9 64bit
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2016, 09:50:31 am »
I hate arguing with you.
You never admit you're wrong :)

Anyway on this occasion I'll bow to your superior wisdom



Graeme
If you can keep your head while all around are losing theirs then you're not quite grasping the situation

Offline GNULINUX

  • Trusted User
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 987
  • Karma: 310
    • View Profile
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint Six (x64)
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2016, 10:24:03 am »
Interesting topic!  ;)

I don't have enough experience in the "Linux" world to judge but...

- I can see an advantage considering the availability of new versions of programs!
- I also can see some advantage considering dependencies (multiple versions posible) but also some major disadvantages (old versions)!
- Am I wrong in assuming that this is going to end like any other app-store, with non working and even malware riddled apps?

Or can this actually (in an ideal world) be like the software repositories are now?

@ emegra;D
Spoiler (click here to view / hide)
[close]


Greets!
Peppermint 6  (x64)   -   Windows 7 Ultimate SP1  (x64)
Running different OS flavors in VirtualBox, just for fun!

Offline PCNetSpec

  • Administrator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 24444
  • Karma: 2698
  • "-rw-rw-rw-" .. The Number Of The Beast
    • View Profile
    • PCNetSpec
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 8R, 9, and 9R
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2016, 10:28:47 am »
I hate arguing with you.
You never admit you're wrong :)

LOL, you're in perfect harmony with my missus opinion then :)
WARNING: You are logged into reality as 'root' .. logging in as 'insane' is the only safe option.

Team Peppermint
PCNetSpec

Offline PCNetSpec

  • Administrator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 24444
  • Karma: 2698
  • "-rw-rw-rw-" .. The Number Of The Beast
    • View Profile
    • PCNetSpec
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 8R, 9, and 9R
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 10:49:28 am »
Or can this actually (in an ideal world) be like the software repositories are now?

in an ideal world, sure there could be a kinda mix of the two (flat-snaps only distributed via peer reviewed repos)  .. but the minute you allow a universal package format the repository system will become unnecessary and die along with the MASSIVE benefits that come with it as it becomes seen by authors as a hindrance to supplying closed source adware rammed software and the like, and from there "the norm".

The point is you hand away control to an industry that has proven itself (in a lot of circumstances, but not all) unreliable and often downright unscrupulous.

I don't WANT to make it easy to install stuff downloaded via the web (even with containerisation) .. for good reason it's not the Linux way.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 10:51:59 am by PCNetSpec »
WARNING: You are logged into reality as 'root' .. logging in as 'insane' is the only safe option.

Team Peppermint
PCNetSpec

Offline zebedeeboss

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2897
  • Karma: 536
  • Life first... Peppermint a close 2nd :)
    • View Profile
  • Peppermint version(s): P10 RC1 / P9 Respin
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2016, 10:52:55 am »
Hi all

From a simple user point of view and with no Linux technical ability/knowledge/knowhow at all (other than being able to use it)

I am of the opinion that this will be a very BAD day for Linux, if this really takes off.    Any Tom, Dick or Harry creating a Snap package and a user finding their way to the store, double clicking it and bingo it's installed. (or however you will use them)

For me one of the strengths of Linux is the Software Centre and Repositories guarded over by the powers that be making sure no crud gets it.  Will the same thing still apply to a Snap package ?

Regards Zeb...
Be Kind Whenever Possible...   It is Always Possible - Dalai Lama

Linux User #565092
P10 RC1 x64 Desktop - i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz - 32Gb RAM - NVIDIA GTX1070ti 8Gb - 2 x 27" 4k 3840x2160 - 1 x 34" 5120x2160
P9 Respin x64 Laptop - i7-7700HQ @ 2.80GHz - 8Gb RAM - Nvidia GTX1050 4Gb - 15.6" HD 1920x1080

Offline PCNetSpec

  • Administrator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 24444
  • Karma: 2698
  • "-rw-rw-rw-" .. The Number Of The Beast
    • View Profile
    • PCNetSpec
  • Peppermint version(s): Peppermint 8R, 9, and 9R
Re: Understanding snaps
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2016, 11:02:02 am »
Will the same thing still apply to a Snap package ?

Theoretically it **could**, but it won't.

The containerisation of flat-snaps lends itself to a certain amount of system protection from malicious processes, but Matthew Garret showed that X11 isn't up to the job of stopping leaks
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/42320.html
but even when that's replaced, you can guarantee security will be circumvented at some point .. and we now have a single point of cross distro attack/failure.
WARNING: You are logged into reality as 'root' .. logging in as 'insane' is the only safe option.

Team Peppermint
PCNetSpec