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Author Topic: And people say Windows is "easier"  (Read 5364 times)

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Offline scifidude79

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2015, 09:20:43 am »
Realistically, none of it is "easier."  Every OS has its highlights and its lows.  However, what I believe that pernkh is trying to dispel with this discussion is the commonly held myth that Linux is more difficult to work with than Windows, which of course is a lie spread by Microsoft.  Back in the pre-Ubuntu days, that may have been true to a certain extent.  However, Canonical and a lot of other modern Linux OS makers have worked hard to make the newer Linux OSes more user friendly.

@zeedeeboss:  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not offended.  Discussions with differing opinions are the spice of life.  If we were all of identical mindset, this would be a boring place.  Never stop voicing your opinions or your views on things.   8)

Offline perknh

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2015, 10:21:27 am »
In truth, Linux *can* (in some circumstances) be more difficult for a novice than Windows .. take (non HP) printer driver installation for an example, this is not a problem with Linux as much as with the manufacturers, but that gives little comfort to a new user.

Good points.  And, forget me trying to learn how to install Arch and then build an Arch distribution.  Realistically, it's never going to happen! 

But that doesn't mean Windows is "easier" than Linux .. sure Windows is *sometimes* easier to add peripherals to, though stupendously more time consuming and frustrating for someone that *does* understand Linux (and Windows) .. but if you don't run into those occasions Linux is most definitely easier, 99% of the time Linux just does it for you.

Yes, it's that 99% of the time that I'm referring to. ;)

Here's a question .. when the few hardware manufacturers that are left that don't put effort into doing open source drivers get onboard (and they will .. partially because of Android and Chromebooks), or when people buy their hardware with Linux in mind instead of "certified for Windows" .. would you still consider Windows "easier" ?

I do that now.  I always buy Windows hardware with the intention of installing Linux onto it.  I was shocked, however, to see how difficult it was to install Peppermint onto a Chromebook.  I know we have tutorial on how to do so, but it certainly isn't easy to do.  And that's going from Linux to Linux!  AndyInMokum said it best about lend27.  lend27 is "officially a superstar"...!!!

Like nearly everyone I know that has become proficient with Linux (usually after becoming proficient with Windows first), I remain convinced that for someone being given an empty PC for the first time, and with zero prior Windows or Linux knowledge, Linux would be easier to learn and faster to become productive on. Heck thanks to "Live" sessions they don't even have to figure out the installation procedure (which is easier in Linux anyway), or where to get software, or how to install it.

I spent a great deal of my early morning searching the Web unsuccessfully trying to find an article about a tiny group of senior citizens in a nursing home learning about computers for the first time.  In this tiny experiment, most residents within the nursing home found Ubuntu easier to learn than Windows.

Anything beyond that siimple fact is purely "learned" behaviour and applies to either OS equally.

Yes!  And, from what I'm hearing about Windows recently, it is pretty easy to use, and even pretty secure, these days.
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Offline zebedeeboss

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2015, 10:27:53 am »
@zebedeeboss

I must however take you up on this:-

Quote
Yes it does - it's just a darn sight harder to catch a cold with Linux.

Can you show me one in the wild ? .. nearly all, if not all, Linux viruses have been proof of concept in the lab and never seen in the wild .. add to that the fact that any Linux virus that does make it into the wild finds it impossible to spread, and limited in any damage it can do, and whilst you're not wrong, it would be more accurate to say "at least for now it's as close to impossible to catch a cold in Linux that it may as well be considered non existant, and any virus even if they did exist would require your assistance before they could do any real damage to your system .. and that because they cannot spread and replicate they probably shouldn't be considered viruses in the first place".

No... I can't because I have never personally caught a cold on Windows either, although I have fixed many friends PC's who have.  I was however taking the information from a number of google searches that come up with information regarding Linux virus's.   https://blogs.sophos.com/2015/03/26/dont-believe-these-four-myths-about-linux-security/ as one example and I am immediately drawn to the paranoid thoughts out there that it is the "anti-virus" companies spreading the Virus's so they can sell their products.
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Offline perknh

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2015, 11:28:35 am »
I've read this before, zebedeeboss, it appears to me that Sophos is gathering too much personal information from its Linux users in order to install its AV software.  I suspect that Sophos is just as much about your and my user data as it is about our "protection."  If you're behind a NAT router, with its firewall enabled, (or if you've installed and enabled a software firewall), and you don't click on spam messages in your inbox.  You should really be extremely safe from malware threats running Peppermint, or any supported Linux distribution.

By the way, don't be surprised if PCNetSpec doesn't respond to this particular post.  He's on record as having said enough about this subject already.   And, it's not personal either.  He's just tired of it. ;) 

http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1929.msg18546.html#msg18546


http://forum.peppermintos.com/index.php/topic,1929.msg18565.html#msg18565
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 11:41:24 am by perknh »
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Offline sskarma

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2015, 11:39:14 am »
You missed out "update the system" for Windows .. let me fix that for you

Windows user:

1. Get Windows pre-installed on PC/Laptop
2. Turn it on and fill in your credentials
3. if >= Win8 figure out how to create a microsoft  account before it'll let you log on
4. log on
5. Update the system
6. Reboot
7. Find that there's still more updates
8. Install them
9. Reboot
10. Find that there's STILL more updates
11. Install them
12. Reboot
13. Find that there's STILL more updates
14. Install them
15. Reboot
16. Buy/download game.
17. install "setup.exe"
18. discover the game install throws an error message that you need .net installing
19. go get .net
20. install .net
21. Reboot
22. Notice that there's suddenly more updates
23. Install them
24. Reboot
25. go to bed because it's now too late to play the damn game
26. wake up and play the game

[EDIT]

Oh and I forgot to add -
After creating your microsoft account, wait for Microsoft to phone/text/email you a confirmation code and enter it
and
go buy antivirus software
install it
Reboot
Update AV definitions .. which pulls in an updated version of the AV software
Re-Fekin-Boot

[EDIT 2]

I also forgot -

Discover in the middle of an interesting part of the game that the PC suddenly reboots and looses your progress because Windows downloaded yet another update in the background and you didn't see the "This computer will automatically reboot in 15 minutes .. Reboot now / Cancel" messege. ;)

And then one day, the computer is dead. or is turned into a blue-screen zombie :D

Offline perknh

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2015, 12:14:46 pm »
And then one day, the computer is dead. or is turned into a blue-screen zombie :D

You're right, sk_sarmapmx!  ;)

Perhaps Windows, in some ways, is actually easier than Linux.  That "blue-screen zombie" sure is easy on the eyes! ;D
We're all Peppermint users and that's what matters  ;).  -- AndyInMokum

Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2015, 01:19:53 pm »
@zebedeeboss

Yeah I'd take anything said by an AV company with a vested interest in selling you something with a pinch of salt ;)
(comparing Linux to OS X is a misnomer from the start .. they get their software in a completely different way than Linux)
(heartbleed and shellshock were NOT viruses, and no AV would have protected against them .. they were vulnerabilities in code that were VERY quickly fixed)
(thier points about PPA's are however valid .. get your software from the default repos, or PPA's owned by the software authors ONLY)

Drawing comparisons between server attacks and viruses/AV is idiotic .. servers are not attacked by  viruses or anything else an AV could proetct against.

and this:-

Quote
The number of “in the wild” threats for Linux-based operating systems is still way lower than threats for Microsoft Windows or Apple OS X.

is misleading .. it shouldn't say "way lower", it should say "non existant in the wild" .. if they're talking about viruses .. attacks against servers (DDOS / password brute force attacks / webserver software vulnerabilities) are a completely different issue, and except for vulnerabilities (usually fixed immediately on discovery) and DDOS attacks, easily preventable if the admin knows what he's doing.


Can I draw your attention to this .. which says it better than anything I've ever come across:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/
and as secondary reding:
http://www.caribyte.com/articles/short_life_hard_times_of_linux_virus



Quote
@zeedeeboss:  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not offended.  Discussions with differing opinions are the spice of life.  If we were all of identical mindset, this would be a boring place.  Never stop voicing your opinions or your views on things.

100% this .. +1000 :)



Can I ask:-

Quote
No... I can't because I have never personally caught a cold on Windows either

How would you know ? .. you can't study the code, and nor can anyone else.
(IIRC for a while the servers at Kaspersky were distributing thier AV product that had a virus)

Yes the same question could be asked of Linux, but as we all get our software from the same place you're not just relying on your own skill in detecting odd system behaviour .. you also have the skill of experts browsing the code (which is all "open" for scrutiny) to fall back on.

Linux doesn't require AV not because it's impossible to write malicious code for Linux, but because it's method of aquiring software, and built in security measures mean it has AV built in, and it's much more effective that any AV bolted onto an insecure OS.



I'm not saying malicious Linux code can't exist... what I AM saying is that it doesn't meet the criteria needed to be called a true "Virus"... ie. the ability to reproduce and spread from PC to PC... indeed there have been a few (loosely termed) Linux viruses... Less than 35 in total... most of which were "proof of concept" code that doesn't exist in the wild... the few trojans/worms that "did" exist in the wild have long since been patched against., and any new ones that "may" appear would quickly be patched... in the Windows world, AVG sees about 150,000 samples of malware every day. Up to 30,000 of those can be new and unique viruses never seen before... that's up to a staggering 10,950,000 *new* pieces of malicious Windows code per year (believe me, even I had to double check that number ;) )
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 01:54:29 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline zebedeeboss

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2015, 02:14:39 pm »
How would I know.   Technically I wouldn't as I am not clever enough in that field.     and if I don't know and it isn't effecting my machine in any noticeable way... why worry about it. I could drive to work tomorrow and be blindsided by a huge truck and end up in hospital, but it doesn't stop me from driving. 

As many forum members have already stated.  "Common Sense" is the best AV out there.    That and I am always re-installing windows every 6-9 months cos I am a "PC Junkie", its also why I distro hop.   Oh and before you all jump in here - LOL - No it's not because windows has developed a fault, ground to a halt, Blue screened or any other anomoly blamed on MS  :P .  I simply get immense satisfaction in installing an OS, I'm also getting better and quicker at it all the time, and then setting up all the apps I need do do what I do on my computer.  Oh and the fact that I mess around with software, to be able to help friends, so often that I just like a new clean fresh windows install.   Linux too - it's just gonna take me a few years to become "knowledgeable"  8)
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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2015, 02:17:51 pm »
How would I know.   Technically I wouldn't as I am not clever enough in that field.     and if I don't know and it isn't effecting my machine in any noticeable way... why worry about it. I could drive to work tomorrow and be blindsided by a huge truck and end up in hospital, but it doesn't stop me from driving. 

That's not the point I was trying to make .. my point was because we all get our software from the same source you're not relying on just your knowledge in Linux, like a lot of thigs it's being done FOR you and the process is open and transparent ;)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 02:20:59 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline zebedeeboss

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2015, 02:53:57 pm »
How would I know.   Technically I wouldn't as I am not clever enough in that field.     and if I don't know and it isn't effecting my machine in any noticeable way... why worry about it. I could drive to work tomorrow and be blindsided by a huge truck and end up in hospital, but it doesn't stop me from driving. 

That's not the point I was trying to make .. my point was because we all get our software from the same source you're not relying on just your knowledge in Linux, like a lot of thigs it's being done FOR you and the process is open and transparent ;)

and long may it continue  ;D it is truly appreciated.
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Online VinDSL

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Re: And people say Windows is "easier"
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2015, 12:10:50 am »
Just found this article on LinkedIn, of all places...  :D

Hacking Windows 10 using a simple windows excel file

See !  winders is easier !