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Author Topic: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World  (Read 3722 times)

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Offline perknh

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Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« on: September 28, 2015, 12:28:33 am »
Yeah, Debian is a good project.  I love the Debian code base and I find many of the Debian terminal commands to be easier to use and understand than anything based on Red Hat.  Plus, Debian uses Apt, the best package management system in the world.  Many great distributions, including this one, owe their existence and wonderful tool sets to Debian.

@scifidude79

Hi scifidude79,

I'm curious why you consider Apt "the best package management system in the world', say like in comparison to Manjaro's package management system, or even Fedora's.  I ask this because I've heard you mention Apt a couple of times within this forum.  There must be a reason for you to say this.

Manjaro, as you've probably heard, has been called the new Ubuntu on the block, and it uses a different package management system than us, but I have never heard you tout Arch, Manjaro, or even Fedora (which Linus Torvalds uses) in the same way you speak about Ubuntu. or even Debian.  I wonder why this is so, because I'm certain you must have had experience with those distributions too.

Personally, I would like to use a rolling release model if it didn't break so frequently.  It seems like there are more bugs over at Manjaro than here, but, then again, Manjaro has only been around for four years.  (Fortunately, Manjaro's attack from the trolls days seem just about over.  But Manjaro certainly has experienced a rocky start.)

Thanks, scifidude79.  Any insights concerning the merits of Apt would be helpful --even as I try to learn a command here and there over at Manjaro.

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Offline scifidude79

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 12:59:18 am »
Because I like it.  It has simple and easy (for me) to remember terminal commands.  apt-get, followed by either "install" or "remove" installs and uninstalls programs.  apt-get followed by autoremove will get rid of any lingering orphaned dependencies, something some Linux package management systems are lacking.  (others have a more lengthy and complicated command)  Adding --purge to either remove or autoremove will completely remove the package and any and all files associated with it.  To me, apt's commands are just simpler than some of the terminal commands other Linux distributions use.

I also think the Synaptic front end is the best GUI option for installing packages, better than what Fedora, Arch, Mageia, or any others have.  One thing I like about Synaptic is its quick search feature, which finds packages as you type the name, with relevant results first.  Other package systems such as Yum, Pacman, etc. require you to type the entire name and hit "search," and it gives you results in alphabetical order, rather than in order of relevance to what you typed.  To me, that's less efficient.

I have a pretty low opinion of Fedora.  I don't like their "we release it and then spend three months fixing it" approach to doing things.  I think the last version I tried was Fedora 15, and I remember having to install it and then install over 600 updates, and the thing had been out less than a week.  I don't particularly care for Yum, which is their package management system.  It can be a real pain in the butt to get it to even work, particularly if it's decided to do a search for updates.  When it's searching for updates, which it does whenever it feels like regardless of what you're doing, it will completely lock up Yum to where you can't even get the software manager to open because it's searching for updates.  This is a direct contrast to Apt, which searches for updates in the background and never impedes your actions in attempting to install or remove software.  In my opinion, that's how it should be.

My experiences with Manjaro are pretty limited.  I tried the RC of their latest release with the KDE-Plasma desktop, but I found it to be entirely too unstable for me to use for an extended period of time.  Though, that was mostly due to KDE-Plasma, which has a number of issues, though I had more issues with Manjaro that I have with other systems using KDE-Plasma.  However, I know that Manjaro uses Pacman, which is Arch's default package management system.  Truth be told, I like it almost as well as Apt.  I find it simple to use and very effective.  Plus, their Octopi GUI installer/uninstaller has a great feature for removing orphaned dependencies which, as I said, some Linux distributions are lacking.  Plus, their update checker is built right into Octopi, making installing updates a simple matter.  So, I'd actually say that Pacman is a close second as far as my favorite package managements systems.

And, even though you didn't ask, Windows 8/8.1's web store scores dead last.  I've never used a web software installer that forced me to hack it just to get it to download and install software, prior to helping someone set up a Win8.1 computer.  That shouldn't be necessary, but it was.  I had to do a web search just to find out what was wrong with the thing because Microsoft's help and support was (as usual) no help.  I found a YouTube video that taught me how to hack it to make it work.   ::)

Anywho, these are just my opinions, of course.  Well, except the Windows thing, that's a serious issue.  Truth be told, I just like Apt best, then Pacman and then Yum.  I'm sure I've used some others.  I don't remember what Mandriva/Mageia use, but it's similar to Yum, but without all of the hassles that Yum has.  If I remember correctly, it's actually pretty nice, somewhere between Pacman and Yum on my list.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 01:04:55 am by scifidude79 »

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2015, 05:11:44 am »
Not to mention dpkg is proven, robust, stable, and has a ton of extremely good management tools built around it that are also well proven and robust. :)
(the apt tools, gdebi, and synaptic  are second to non)

Arch is well known for blowing up in your face if you're not wary or knowledgeable .. bleeding edge software from AUR is both a godsend (if you want the most software and the bleeding edge), and an Achilles heel (in that you'll likely spend a lot of time fixing compatibility issues).

Though I can't say I've delved into how Manjaro differs from Arch, if it uses the AUR it'll likely have the same benefits but  also suffer the same problems, if not it'll not have Arch's flexibility and bleeding edge software.
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Offline AndyInMokum

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 05:35:50 am »
The way Manjaro manages AUR is pretty cool.  Whenever Arch drop an update on their users, it's true bleeding edge software.  With Manjaro, they hold it back and run further tests until they are satisfied with the stability of the update.  They also have three different branches, rather like Debian: Stable, Testing and Unstable.  When it all works, it's beautiful  ;).  It's still based on Arch and that means be ready to get your hands really dirty fixing things.  This is no good for the user who just wants things to work.  The Debian based distros will win out every time in comparison to Arch.   I feel that all of these Arch based distros are really just dressing up a wolf in sheep's clothing, irrespective of what safeguards they put in place.  Arch is Arch and it's great for developers and habitual tinkerers.  That's kind of the whole point of it.  For new users, it's something to steer well away from, unless you're very, very  adventurous  ;D
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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2015, 05:55:35 am »
Couldn't have put it better.....

If Manjaro reckon they can "manage" the AUR then good luck to them, but:-

a) doesn't that kinda defeat the point of Arch and the AUR ?
and
b) mean they'd better have a LOT of devs, or that you'll end up with a lot less software and a two tier AUR confusing things more ?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 06:00:09 am by PCNetSpec »
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Online VinDSL

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 07:14:17 am »
Someone should play the Devil's advocate here...

Apt is fine, but I know seasoned IT professionals (ppl that work in NOCs, etc.) that wouldn't touch Apt-Get with a 10-foot pole.  Aptitude is their fair-haired child.

I used to get in heated arguments with them over Apt-Get vs. Aptitude.  The basis of their argument boils down to, Aptitude is for pros, and Apt-Get is for fools.

I've used both, and don't see a big difference for the things we do.  The only reason I quit using Aptitude is because I didn't like the process involved with pinning files.  It was quite contrived - but, pros like that sort of thing.

Extra credit reading:  https://pthree.org/2007/08/12/aptitude-vs-apt-get/
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 07:26:25 am by VinDSL »

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 07:21:08 am »
I *think* scifidude was really talking about debian package management (dpkg) as a whole .. but you still can't beat the apt tools, of which aptitude is included :)
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Online VinDSL

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 07:29:29 am »
Yup, but the OP said APT - and I'm working on my first pot of coffee  :D

I need to run, but I added a link (above).  It does a good job of explaining the diff.

GG BBL

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 08:57:18 am »
whilst aptitude is a great tool with a nice ncurses front end, "aptitude search" also has some peculiarities as do some of it's other commands which can seem overly complex at times.
Code: [Select]
apt-cache search internationalization
searches package names, AND it also searches the descriptions.
Code: [Select]
aptitutde search internationalization
will give you nothing unless you also tell it to specifically  list descriptions and filter the output through grep
Code: [Select]
aptitude search ~d | grep internationalization
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Offline AndyInMokum

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2015, 08:58:44 am »
Warning: Please be very careful folks.  If you've been using apt for all your updates and downloads, don't decide to give aptitude a try.  It's highly advised to keep to one or the other from the installation of your OS.  Mixing apt and aptitude could very easily bork your machine  ;).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:01:11 am by AndyInMokum »
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Offline scifidude79

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2015, 10:09:07 am »
Thanks for the warning, Andy. 8)

I *think* scifidude was really talking about debian package management (dpkg) as a whole .. but you still can't beat the apt tools, of which aptitude is included :)

Pretty much, though I have little experience with aptitude.  I usually just use apt-get, 'cause I'm not an IT professional, or a professional anything.  ;)  But, yeah, I just like the dpkg system in general and its robust tools and, as you said, proven stability.  That includes all of the tools.

Offline perknh

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2015, 09:56:40 am »
scifidude79, PCNetSpec, AndyInMokum, and VinDSL,

Thanks for the insights and your answers here.  As for Manjaro, they've come out with a new version numbered 15.09, called Bellatrix (which is pronounced as Bel-LAY-trix).  But, if I boot first into Peppermint, from my external hard drive, and then scroll down to boot up Manjaro, Manjaro experiences a "kernel panic."  My computer can handle the 4.1.8-1 kernel if I boot directly to Manjaro, bypassing the external drive.  This definitely a bug within this new version of Manjaro--same happens with the 3.18 kernel.

As professional looking as Manjaro's Xfce distribution is, I am convinced  that there a more bugs within Arch-based distributions than within Debian, Ubuntu, or their derivatives.  I've seen too many bugs too many times within Manjaro not to come to this conclusion, but I've never experienced kernel panics until last night. :o

A live flash drive of Peppermint came to my rescue.  Both my drives came up clean --a couple of times! :)

perknh
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Offline sskarma

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2015, 10:31:05 am »
I tri-boot Peppermint with Puppy Linux and Elementary OS now. peppermint and elementary both use "apt". And I can use synaptic on them. :) I have rarely used a  non-debian distro, so for me, it's the best :P

Offline perknh

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2015, 12:18:13 pm »
I tri-boot Peppermint with Puppy Linux and Elementary OS now. peppermint and elementary both use "apt". And I can use synaptic on them. :) I have rarely used a  non-debian distro, so for me, it's the best :P

Hi sk_sarma,

I've had the best luck with the Debian or Ubuntu-based distributions too.  I replaced Manjaro Xfce with SolydX, and with Peppermint booting up first from the external drive.  Things seem to be back to normal again. ;)

perknh
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Offline Slim.Fatz

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Re: Apt, The Best Package Management System in the World
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2015, 01:25:10 pm »
As professional looking as Manjaro's Xfce distribution is, I am convinced  that there a more bugs within Arch-based distributions than within Debian, Ubuntu, or their derivatives.  I've seen too many bugs too many times within Manjaro not to come to this conclusion, but I've never experienced kernel panics until last night. :o


Hi perknh,

I have Arch installed on two computers as a test distro, play-around & learn Linux better distro. My original installation was done using ArchBang but that was only because of the easy installation. Compared to my experiences with Manjaro, which really looked like it would be the way to go, I can only say this: with Manjaro I ALWAYS had problems, crashes, etc. Their releases seem to be poorly tested. I say this because I never used anything other than their stable releases of packages.

With Arch (which I now consider my ArchBang installation to be since I never use anything that is ArchBang specific but use Arch repositories, etc.) I have not had a single problem in the last two years (and in this time I also had Manjaro installed, and it always gave me problems).

So my point is: you should not conclude (based upon your experience with Manjaro) that Arch has more problems than other distros. Try something else that is Arch-based, or Arch itself (not easy, I admit), and then make or draw a conclusion concerning Arch and stability.

Some Arch-based distros end up making Arch look terrible -- although the problem is not in Arch itself but in the derivatives.

Regards,

-- Slim
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 01:27:01 pm by Slim.Fatz »
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