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Author Topic: Grab your pitchforks: Ubuntu to switch to systemd on Monday  (Read 5406 times)

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Offline perknh

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Re: Grab your pitchforks: Ubuntu to switch to systemd on Monday
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2015, 07:56:33 pm »
Hello PCNetSpec,

What you posted makes a good argument against the use of systemd.

And I read this from Russ Allbery in his post entitled Bug#727708: systemd code documentation:  "In systemd, each function seems well-designed and isolated and does document some of its assumptions with asserts, which is good style, but there are almost no comments.  Functions usually don't have leading comments describing when to call them, header files don't comment functions, files don't have leading comments to orient the reader towards the purpose of the file, and most of the internal comments were cryptic to a first-time reader and struck me more as marginalia than commentary."*

What I see here is that more developers will have difficulty understanding what certain strings of code will be doing -- which harkens back what mac said about systemd being more and more like a proprietary OS which many of us have tried to get away from.  This means more and more obfuscation by the use of systemd. And more and more obfuscation with the use of systemd will inevitably mean Linux will become a less safe platform, and a more buggy operating system.

But, here's what I don't understand conceptually here.  Is systemd  "a large set of small utilities, each one with a defined purpose, but which are absolutely not interchangeable or replaceable" ?**  Or is systemd one overarching program that does not adhere to the Unix principle of doing one thing and doing it well?  If systemd is a large set of small utilities, that would be adhering to this Unix principle, right?  Or is the "large set of small utilities" the no-no here?  Or is the real problem due to poor documentation which could be remedied by using upstart and Doxygen?*  Or both?

And, one other thing, who won't be using systemd? 

From what I can see only three distributions won't be using systemd.  They will be Gentoo, Slackware, and Devuan.  Practically speaking, isn't Peppermint essentially married to systemd now?  systemd is already upstream and coming to a distro near all of us really, really soon.  As the saying goes, when you put the ring on the finger, you get the whole hand.  And when you marry the lovely lady, you inherit all the members of her family too, even though this may make you feel a little like this at times:  >:(.  And this goes both ways, I might add! ;D

Peppermint is essentially stuck with systemd now, isn't it?

* https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00032.html

** https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd
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Offline PCNetSpec

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Re: Grab your pitchforks: Ubuntu to switch to systemd on Monday
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2015, 08:34:08 pm »
Quote
"a large set of small utilities, each one with a defined purpose, but which are absolutely not interchangeable or replaceable"

If they're not interchangeable or replaceable .. then it has to be considered a "whole thing", and this "whole thing" does NOT adhere to the Unix philosophy, it's massively complex and overarching.

The whole of the "Debian position statement" was full of that kind of twisted logic, and to me felt lie they were trying to justify their decision to themselves .. kinda made me laugh.

Will Peppermint be saddled with it ? .. at least in the short term, most likely  :(
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 08:43:59 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline perknh

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Re: Grab your pitchforks: Ubuntu to switch to systemd on Monday
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2015, 09:09:05 pm »
Quote
"a large set of small utilities, each one with a defined purpose, but which are absolutely not interchangeable or replaceable"

If they're not interchangeable or replaceable .. then it has to be considered a "whole thing", and this "whole thing" does NOT adhere to the Unix philosophy, it's massively complex and overarching.

Thank you, PCNetSpec,

Thank you for focusing on that part of the statement, that says they "are absolutely not interchangeable or replaceable".  Bingo! I get it.  No, this is NOT part of the Unix philosophy -- and I see that clearly now.

I haven't heard anything from Kendall and Shane on systemd yet, but this is BIG news.  I imagine that if Peppermint decides to eventually venture away from the acceptance of systemd, we'd most likely fork from Devuan instead of Debian by then.  I imagine the command structure of Devuan will be more like Debian, or Ubuntu, than that of Gentoo.

perknh

Update -- an article:

Debian 8: Linux’s most reliable distro makes its biggest change since 1993:  The controversial "systemd" comes to an OS known for stability
by Scott Gilbertson May 1, 2015 10:17am EDT for Ars Technica

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/05/01/debian-8-linuxs-most-reliable-distro-makes-its-biggest-change-since-1993/
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 06:51:42 pm by perknh »
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Offline perknh

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Re: Grab your pitchforks: Ubuntu to switch to systemd on Monday
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2015, 03:41:11 pm »
WORLD BEYOND WINDOWS Exploring Linux, Chrome OS, and beyond.

It's optional for now, but Linux Mint expects to switch to systemd next year

by Chris Hoffman | @chrisbhoffman 
of PCWorld

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2921385/its-optional-for-now-but-linux-mint-expects-to-switch-to-systemd-next-year.html



Controversial Lennart Poettering Finds His Place In Linux Community

 by Charles Babcock for InformationWeek

http://www.informationweek.com/software/operating-systems/controversial-lennart-poettering-finds-his-place-in-linux-community/a/d-id/1320316
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 07:01:30 pm by perknh »
We're all Peppermint users and that's what matters  ;).  -- AndyInMokum