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Offline seaken

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My opinion on why some still use XP
« on: March 15, 2015, 02:13:46 pm »
[I was going to reply to a previous topic but it was over 120 days old so I started this new topic instead - I'm new here and I'm reading a lot of old topics - catching up with all you Pepperminters!]]

Why do many individuals and small businesses continue to use Windows XP?

I'll start with a quote from Captain Ramius from one of my favorite movies 'The Hunt for Red October' - "We each have our reasons".

So, I can only speak for myself and my own family's business. But I sense from my conversations with other similarly sized business in similar circumstances that some of the decisions we make are based on the same general undertanding of how things work.

One thing I have noticed is that many individuals and small business do not understand computers and software. If it were up to many from my generation we would all still be using paper and pen, filing cabinets, and good-old postal mail. In fact, our own small business still continues to use paper invoices and paper records for every transaction. Computer records are generated from this paper trail and is always behind the "real" documents - on PAPER! Workers from the generation just behind me would be agast at how little of our business is recorded with computer data and how little information is readily available with a simple on-line search. A "search" in our system takes hours and days, not milliseconds.

So, again, the question - why do some poeple still use XP? It's because they do not know what you know. They do not understand. It has always worked for them and it is what "the computer guy" set up for them 15 or 20 years ago.

The software they paid thousands of dollars to some local consultant to set up is "running fine". "I don't care about cute little pictures - I just need to read the data on my screen. My last program ran fine in DOS but the consultant said we had to upgrade to Windows if we wanted any more help. So, we updated to Windows XP and it cost us thousands of dollars. But I don't see any difference from the DOS program. Looks the same to me. Oh, and can you hand me that stack of invoices over there. I need to update my briefcase."

I have spent countless hours trying to convince our family to upgrade our computer systems and install modern point-of-sale software and inventory management software. The feedback I get is 'it is too much money to spend and we don't really need it. We don't understand those systems, they are too complicated and we are comfortable with how we do it now.'

At the same time I have taken it upon myself to swap out and upgrade several workstations over the years and stay up-to-date with virus and malware protection while we continue to hold on to our old ways and VERY SLOWLY get used to new features that are added to help improve productivity. It has taken years but we now use a calendar that is in the "cloud" instead of on the counter on a clip board. We now also have some "smart phones" that allow communication between our store staff and our road crew without having to use land-line phones and pagers. Some of our senior staff now know how to "e-mail" or "text" a message to an outside sales rep or technician. Some of our senior staff have no clue and ask one of the younger kids to communicate a message.

Ask our owner's about the risks of XP and they will say "we would rather not use the computer anyway. We were forced into computers and paid thousands of dollars to so-called conultants and now we are being asked to do it all over again? What did we pay that guy for?"

My immagination leads me to think that a lot of these XP machines are being used by companies or organizations who are staffed by people who do not understand why what they paid thousands of dollars for 20 years ago is no longer any good. It's not selfish - it's ignorance. And finances. The generation who paid computer consultants to set up windows systems for them did not budget to replace these systems 15 or 20 years later. It was not in the budget. And now it's a financial burden.

Many small business people active today still do not know what Windows is and what makes it different from DOS, or MAC, or Linux. They bought a "computer system" from a "consultant" and it cost a LOT of money. They will be damned if they are going to spend a lot more money to replace a system that still works! "Those damn computer people are just trying to sell me on upgrades and scare me by saying I'll get a virus." "I can't afford a new computer system - I'm sticking with what I have - it works!"

The perspective of a computer techie or developer is completely different from that of a small business owner who has been fighting to stay in business for twenty to fourty years and grew up in a world where technology is "new" to them. To that business owner XP was an upgrade and a window to a whole new paradigm. They never understood it and fail to understand why the "new" stuff is any better.

That's my take. It's somewhat cynical I know. And I am not personally a cynic. But I can pretty much guarantee that what I have experienced in my own family business is being repeated millions of times over all around the world.

Sean

Offline 10i

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2015, 03:43:20 pm »
Hi there,

How true, people stick with what they know and what has worked for them.

Another reason: updating to Windows 8, my scanner that worked on xp does not work now. I know a draftsman who cannot upgrade from xp as
His plotter won't work on anything else.

When you upgrade one thing is snowballs and before you know it you have had to replace everything. Microsoft makes companies a lot of money when working tech needs to be replaced.

Updating software is also very expensive. Ms is moving towards a yearly licensing fee for Office 365 and who knows, Windows 10 might also have such a yearly fee.

Linux is not all about the money. It is about community.
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Offline rjm65

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2015, 03:48:54 pm »
I see it every time i go out to eat at my favorite restaurant i see windows xp on all their terminals they use it to place the orders and as cash registers 3 dells on the counters all running XP...    I don't think they care because the system is not hooked up to the internet...   
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Offline AndyInMokum

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2015, 03:56:18 pm »
Hi 10i, how's it going mate?  If you think about how much money MS has to have lost just with extending the life of XP.   Businesses are reluctant to upgrade to Windows 8.1, they're terrified of what Windows 10 has to offer.  They are going hang on to Windows 7 like grim death for as long as possible.  I think when it comes to Window 11, it will "x" amount of time with free support.  After that period has expired it will be on a subscription basis only.  Microsoft is in my opinion a waning force in the industry.   ;)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 03:59:10 pm by AndyInMokum »
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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2015, 05:06:38 pm »
@seaken

Let me explain this is NOT aimed at you personally .. more a rebuttal against the hypothetical business owners/managers you portrayed :)



Quote
Many small business people active today still do not know what Windows is and what makes it different from DOS, or MAC, or Linux. They bought a "computer system" from a "consultant" and it cost a LOT of money. They will be damned if they are going to spend a lot more money to replace a system that still works! "Those damn computer people are just trying to sell me on upgrades and scare me by saying I'll get a virus." "I can't afford a new computer system - I'm sticking with what I have - it works!"

a) "I can't afford a new computer system - I'm sticking with what I have - it works!" .. these people ARE in for a rude awakening, XP will not "work" for very long and sticking with it is going to cost them dearly when all their data is stolen then corrupted

b) "Those damn computer people are just trying to sell me on upgrades and scare me by saying I'll get a virus." .. Erm no they're not just trying to scare you, the threat is real and not so much a threat as a certainty.

I don't get why some people have no problem replacing things like office supplies when the run out, or office furniture/heaters/air conditioners when they become a liability, or air filters when they become inefficient, etc. yet these same people expect an OS not to age and/or think they're being "ripped off" when an OS becomes inefficient/old/clogged/a liability  :-\ .. do they expect the engines in their cars to last forever or do they budget for its eventual demise/replacement  ::)

Microsoft has ended support for XP so there will be no more security updates (you can't expect them to keep supplying free fixes for something you paid for ONCE 15 to 20 years ago), what this means is from now on when a new vulnerability is discovered in XP it will NOT be patched by  an update, the vulnerability will become well know yet go unfixed, so WILL be exploited.
Business owners/managers (or their IT staff) cannot say the end of XP support caught them by surprise .. Microsoft have extended the support twice now and the update manager will have been warning you.

Speaking as a "techie", this situation is not of my making, and in trying to get you to upgrade I'm NOT attempting to exploit the situation .. in fact I'll make more money if you DON'T upgrade as you're going to be calling me a LOT and are eventually going to upgrade anyway .. what I'm trying to do when I tell you you need to ditch Windows XP is (as a previous and respected client) giving you the free benefit of my specialist knowledge  to make sure you understand the risks to your data and hopefully SAVE you a LOT of future grief.
(think of it more like a fireman reminding you to replace the batteries in your smoke alarms .. I'll sell the new batteries to you if you wish, or you're free to go elsewhere .. but they NEED replacing)

I can also (as a techie) tell you that although a lot of business owners/managers like to say things like "what do we need these computers for anyway ?" .. they cry like babies and want the system fixed "yesterday" as soon as their systems break .. and XP WILL BREAK, it's not a case of if, or even when, it's a case of how much you loose when it does, and believe me data theft/loss is going to kill a lot of businesses.

I get it .. XP *appears* to be working, and it's human nature to wonder why something that *appears* to be working needs replacing .. but if you don't understand the tech, trust the people that do or at the very least listen to them, then do your own homework.

There are NO techies out there trying to make money by getting you off XP .. without a doubt there would be more money in it for us if we all kept our mouths shut .. the XP aftermath is going to be worth billions ;)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 05:26:06 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline seaken

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2015, 10:38:32 am »


Speaking as a "techie", this situation is not of my making, and in trying to get you to upgrade I'm NOT attempting to exploit the situation .. in fact I'll make more money if you DON'T upgrade as you're going to be calling me a LOT and are eventually going to upgrade anyway .. what I'm trying to do when I tell you you need to ditch Windows XP is (as a previous and respected client) giving you the free benefit of my specialist knowledge  to make sure you understand the risks to your data and hopefully SAVE you a LOT of future grief.
(think of it more like a fireman reminding you to replace the batteries in your smoke alarms .. I'll sell the new batteries to you if you wish, or you're free to go elsewhere .. but they NEED replacing)

I can also (as a techie) tell you that although a lot of business owners/managers like to say things like "what do we need these computers for anyway ?" .. they cry like babies and want the system fixed "yesterday" as soon as their systems break .. and XP WILL BREAK, it's not a case of if, or even when, it's a case of how much you loose when it does, and believe me data theft/loss is going to kill a lot of businesses.

I get it .. XP *appears* to be working, and it's human nature to wonder why something that *appears* to be working needs replacing .. but if you don't understand the tech, trust the people that do or at the very least listen to them, then do your own homework.

There are NO techies out there trying to make money by getting you off XP .. without a doubt there would be more money in it for us if we all kept our mouths shut .. the XP aftermath is going to be worth billions ;)

Well said. I wish more small business owners would trust the people who know the subject. But they let their fear and ignorance direct their decisions. I am a tech myself, in another field. I face the repair or replace issue all the time. No one wants to replace something they paid so much money for. They don't think about budgeting for replacement.

Sean

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2015, 11:33:55 am »
Yeah, tech support to small businesses is always an "interesting" balancing act between your knowledge and how much their budget allows them to trust it :)

Even more "interesting" is who gets the blame when something goes wrong because of their constraints (any warning you gave will be as completely forgotten as they were ignored) :)

[EDIT]

It's car analogy time again ....

If you regularly drive your car on dangerous winding mountain roads and a mechanic told you there's a known problem with your model of car where the steering WILL at some point fail suddenly and catastrophically, I bet you'd be willing to defer to the mechanics specialist knowledge or at least get a second opinion then act pretty sharpish when the second opinion concurs :)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 12:07:31 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline 10i

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 02:11:20 pm »
Do you know how many ATM's I have seen that run XP? I hope banks take this seriously as well.

I think that there needs to be more resources made available to people interested in using Linux and Open Source software in business.

Companies sometimes need specific software (here people use Pastel Accounting, it is the most used accounting software in South Africa).

Companies do sometimes expect hardware to last forever, which is not realistic. Running Linux will allow PC's to last longer than they would using Windows.

The problem is that companies need support, and where I live at least nobody knows what Linux is. If anything happens and your point of sale PC is down, you can't ring up sales and business stops.

Anyways, there are challenges in going the Linux route. If you can do it, the cost if worth the effort.
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Offline DrCreamcake

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 06:01:12 pm »
 :) Hello folks I have had some success moving some people over to Linux from the existing Windows Operating Systems and they have been blown away with it, for 1 they have never heard of it. The last customer i did the lady can now do more with her laptop then she could ever do when she was running Windows 7, and a lot of it is information. I think the best course I have found is by moving them over to open source software 1 step at a time, I moved them onto Libreoffice first and let them get used to it then it seems to go from there, once I have explained the meaning of Open Source they seem to come round to it. I will keep offering Linux and other Open Source applications to my customers they so many benefits Thank You. :)

Offline perknh

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2015, 06:46:48 pm »
I noticed a couple of observations that may have gone unnoticed by the power points which were so well addressed within this thread.

Here are the observations less commented upon:

Quote
I see it every time i go out to eat at my favorite restaurant i see windows xp on all their terminals they use it to place the orders and as cash registers 3 dells on the counters all running XP...    I don't think they care because the system is not hooked up to the internet...   -- rjm65

This is true, right?  As long as XP is NOT hooked up to the Internet, these companies can sail along with XP as long as they like, right?  In the medical facilities (dentists' and doctors' offices) here, I see XP just about everywhere I go.

Quote
Do you know how many ATM's I have seen that run XP? I hope banks take this seriously as well. --  10i

This observation gives me the willies.  I know 10i isn't from the States -- but I've heard the same reports here.  Slowly, and I mean slowly, the ATMs here are getting replaced.  And this bothers me much more than rjm's observation above.  From what I can tell, this phenomenon appears to be worldwide.
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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2015, 07:06:33 pm »
I agree wit you, most people who aren't heavily invested in Windows tend to have no problem with Linux.

The problem used to be that Linux didn't come pre-installed, and people became so accustomed to Windows that when there were attempts to put Linux on hardware such as the first netbooks most people didn't know what they were buying, they couldn't see the benefits of Linux as they were too busy concentrating on the the fact it wasn't Windows.

I'm still of the opinion that netbooks died not because of the idea (which IMHO was a great one), but because OEM's "blinked" too soon then bowed to Microsoft pressure to install Windows. Windows (even XP) was far to large and heavy for netbooks limited hardware requiring the OEM's to ditch the small SSD's and go back to hard drives. The whole point of netbooks was "cheap, small, ultra portable, web browsing devices" .. HDD's meant they were more fragile so less portable and the OEM's installing Windows meant they ceased being cool "web devices" and were then perceived as MASSIVELY underpowered full laptops instead  ::)

Smartphones have driven a massive resurgence in "device" computing, and have been successful in raising awareness that Windows isn't a necessity .. Chromebooks are proving  that Joe Public is more than ready for a resurgence in the  "Linux Netbook" idea .. now we just need a "proper" Linux pre-installed on some platform that isn't going to be compared to Windows PC's so Linux can break into the public conciosness.

Maybe an OEM "Peppermint Netbook" which would really sit halfway between the Chromebook and a Windows Laptop ?



[EDIT]

@perknh

Quote
This is true, right?  As long as XP is NOT hooked up to the Internet, these companies can sail along with XP as long as they like, right?  In the medical facilities (dentists' and doctors' offices) here, I see XP just about everywhere I go
.

Wrong....

If the XP machine is on a network with ANY internet connection......

or if the XP machine is on a local network that has no internet connection but has a wireless (or unsecured wired) access point....

or if the XP machine has an active wireless adapter....

or if the XP machine allows users other than the IT staff to insert a CD/DVD/USB stick....

Basically if the XP machine has any human interaction (including some IT staff I've seen) it is at risk

The only way an XP machine is safe is if it has no network connection AT ALL and no human access/interaction.
(remember business IT departments have suggested that a major source of security penetration is some employee innocently plugging in an infected USB stick to watch a film/listen to some music/access a file he has on it, or possibly a disgruntled employee doing it on purpose)

The only way a business with XP machines is safe is if the XP machines contains ZERO sensitive data

Put simply, in 999 out of 1000 use cases XP should have been replaced, and there's usually no valid reason to stick with XP on the other 1 ;)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 09:22:32 pm by PCNetSpec »
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Offline perknh

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2015, 07:37:49 pm »
Quote
Chromebooks are proving  that Joe Public is more than ready for a resurgence in the  "Linux Netbook" idea .. now we just need a "proper" Linux pre-installed on some platform that isn't going to be compared to Windows PC's so Linux can break into the public consciousness.

Maybe an OEM "Peppermint Netbook" which would really sit halfway between the Chromebook and a Windows Laptop ? -- PCNetSpec

It's tough to break into the Chomebook/Netbook market, but, to be honest, I think a Peppermintbook would be a perfect bridge between the very limited and inflexible Chromebook, and the overly heavy and cumbersome laptop.   We would need to hear some Dutch, Afrikaans and other translations for a Peppermintbook -- because we need a catchy sound for this new device.  And, who knows?  This new device might even be systemd free!  ;D

But, in my own home, a bridge between a Chromebook and laptop is just what we need.  Great idea!  ;)
We're all Peppermint users and that's what matters  ;).  -- AndyInMokum

Offline perknh

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 08:38:43 pm »
   @PCNetSpec

Quote
The only way a business with XP machines is safe is if the XP machines contains ZERO sensitive data

Put simply, in 999 out of 1000 use cases XP should have been replaced, and there's usually no valid reason to stick with XP on the other 1 ;) --PCNetSpec

And imagine that this unsupported OS, Windows XP, not only carries some of one's personal information, but, quite frequently, all of one's most personal information -- one's SSN, home and work addresses, date of birth, phone numbers, email addresses, emergency contacts, and the most private and personal medical information. 
 
This is outrageous.
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Offline 10i

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2015, 12:48:17 am »
Peppermint oem netbook or laptop +1

In Afrikaans it would be pronounced Pepperment.

PC shops have little interest in supporting Linux because (and these are my opinion ) :

1. Linux takes years longer for a PC to need to be replaced. A Windows PC won't run current software for very long. Meaning less sales.

2. Less incentives from companies. I have heard that Ms actually pays certain stores a incentive bonus for each copy of Office they sell. No open source project would match this.
3. Anti virus sales and technical charges. Most shops make a significant income from removing viruses and reinstalling Windows. That money is lost when selling machines running Linux.

I am trying to be realistic here, these are challenges as the shop owners need to believe they will be able to make a profit before they support Linux.

By the way: I have used USB guardian and installed it on a lot of Xp machines. It blocks autorun on flash drives and let's you remove autorun viruses.
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Offline perknh

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Re: My opinion on why some still use XP
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2015, 07:54:50 am »
Hello 10i,

Of course we wouldn't have to name it after Peppermint in order for it to run Peppermint Linux OS.  That was just a fun idea.

Heck, you have a good name -- imagine the 10i, or the Emegra.  Obviously we can't name it after Kendall, and we can't name it after mac.  Those names are already taken, and they have done pretty good for themselves!  ;D

But, what I'd like to see, is something out there that is less costly than those beautiful System 76 Ubuntu computers.  Linux needs something more affordable.  With prices like we see at System 76, Linux becomes an exclusive club for a small group of Yuppies.  So often we think of using Linux as a way to salvage old computers.  And although that the right thing to do, I hate to see the use of the Linux kernel only in new devices such as Android phones and Chromebooks.  Heck, I don't even know if a Chromebook really is GNU/Linux any longer, or if it's it's own unique beast right now.  I don't believe it is GNU/Linux.  And Android, what is it?   Dalvik/Linux?  I don't know.  But I do know I can't find the words GNU or Linux anywhere in the fine print within my wife's Android phone.

I'm here, in Peppermint's GNU/Linux camp, but we could use some new and affordable hardware that would support GNU/Linux.  And I don't like this splitting within GNU/Linux over systemd either.  I suspect the minority distributions -- Slackware, Gentoo, and Devuan are on the right side of history, but are going to fall behind the larger distributions that are adopting systemd right now.  I'm afraid they could be dead right in a few years time.  :'(

Richard Stallman's words are proving themselves prophetic, when he said, "We're headed for a total disaster."  My fear is that things might be even worse for GNU/Linux than he had imagined at the time he had uttered those words.  :(

Oh, by the way 10i, realistically speaking, your opinion makes a lot of sense to me.  As usual, it all boils down to money.
We're all Peppermint users and that's what matters  ;).  -- AndyInMokum