Author Topic: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11  (Read 1611 times)

Offline Johan

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2020, 11:37:49 am »
@johan -- that is  about what I am going for... ;)

Interesting.
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Offline grafiksinc

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 01:12:37 pm »
@manyroads....I agree with you.. infact in my tests of course, nearly everything does carry over... I heard better to go with openrc if we going based on Devuan...

On the Debian side I would use the bullseye repos just for the newer packages though. For instance there is a big difference between xfce4.12 and 4.14. ;)

Not too sure if Devuan has a testing repo like that...know what I mean.

 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 04:02:50 am by grafiksinc »

Offline The Omen

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 02:33:51 pm »
Hi  grafiksinc,

Quote
All in all building a pathway to give an option to get away from the Ubuntu eco system

"Mint update works perfect. Please keep it". That is something I do like as well as I have been shown by a friend of mine that is very active on the Linux Mint forums, That the lead developer, "Clem" is also distancing Mint somewhat from Ubuntu.

As a for instance, The Chromium browser which i like to use, will not have to be installed with "snaps", in fact, he has done away with "snaps" in their Mint Update Manager as well as their Software Manager as "snaps" is a Cononical, Ubuntu thingy anyways, and the Mint team is now going to maintain Chromium themselves and keep it up to date as a .deb install, They do the maintaining work, we reap the benefit by using their installer and "updater" system.

Just my personal opinion.

Regards,

The Omen

« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:37:30 pm by The Omen »

Offline grafiksinc

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2020, 03:55:38 pm »
@the omen.....what is the draw to it that you think most folks like?  For me I never really see the point...yes it gives choice and visualization I suppose.... Maybe that's it....hmmm.... :-\ but personally I always removed it.... ::) Lol

Offline The Omen

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 04:18:41 pm »
Quote
@the omen.....what is the draw to it that you think most folks like?  For me I never really see the point...yes it gives choice and visualization I suppose.... Maybe that's it....hmmm....but personally I always removed it....Lol

I am thinking that you are talking about both the Update Manager as well as the Software Manager.

The Update Manager is GREAT because even though MY Linux teacher taught me to use Synaptic and sudo apt update and sudo apt upgrade, sudo apt install (package-name), etc. Many of my age group that I am trying to get to use Peppermint are not comfortable with that at all and are afraid of screwing things up.

It is just really good to be able to look down at the Update Manager icon and see that you have updates to install, rather than not seeing that at all and not remembering to search for updates with terminal or other methods, It's all there right on the panel bar.

I also found that they also like to look around in the Software Manager for new ideas of things they can play around with while learning, as well as seeing that there is an easy uninstall in there also if they don't like it.

Not all of us are developers like you are and those two items make everything that much easier for regular people to use Peppermint, especially if they are coming from Windows or Macs.

That was the smartness of Mr. Greaves in his way of doing Peppermint, He made it real easy for most of us using it and i think that in the way he did do it, he would like to have continued using these valuable tools.

This is just my opinion as well as what i heard from the guys I'm teaching from my school so i hope you guys doing the developing don't forget that you are doing this not just yourselves and the other much more experienced people here in the forum that i have been able to talk with here, but also remember people like me, who are just your average newbie to a Linux OS as well as the people that myself and others are trying to win over.

I had a GREAT, very knowledgeable teacher who knows Peppermint real well, and uses the terminal for everything, but my friends do not have that, they have only got me and what I have learned so far in the last 3 or so years now.

Regards,

The Omen
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 04:28:54 pm by The Omen »

Offline The Omen

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2020, 05:14:54 pm »
Hi  grafiksinc,

Just as another point I forgot to make in what I already posted.

You had mentioned in an earlier post about dealing with both Ubuntu and LM with the Update Manager as well as the Software Manager.

It is my understanding that with, LM that the Mint way of doing it is by getting rid of Ubuntu, Canonical things like "snaps" since Ubuntu is trying to replace APT, .deb etc. in favor of doing things with just snaps installers etc.

They are also starting things like repackaging Chromium Browser away from snaps, which is Canonicals one and only way of doing it now, and will now maintain its distrubution using .deb installation. They are also prepared to do things with other "snaps" only packages as well.

So the way I am seeing it is that LM is willing to do the heavy lifting here and the de-Cononicaling of things like other people are de-Googling things, that to me sounds like a no-brainer to have them do the work on this rather than Peppermint team having to do this as well as everything else while being short on people to do this.

So Really, your not going to have to deal with two systems as much as really relying on just the LM version of Update Manager and Software Manager.

Just my thoughts here. I am just now turned 19 last month but I have had a really good teacher in Linux over the past 3 or so years now, to actually make me think of things like this. He always tells me to put the K.I.S.S on things, Keep it simple stupid, lol, rather than making things more complicated for myself and others.

I think this keeps things as simple as possible.

Regards,

The Omen
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 05:20:08 pm by The Omen »

Offline grafiksinc

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2020, 06:01:02 am »
@theomen -- really great info and perspective...... thank you so much for your feedback and thought. it is really helpful.

hmmmmm...... ;) lets see.... where to start...

> I am thinking that you are talking about both the Update Manager as well as the Software Manager.
--Really I am only talking about the Mint Update manager... ... The Software manager..... is another subject of interest  as well but for now I will focus on the Update manager. ..   

>The Update Manager is GREAT because even though MY Linux teacher taught me to use Synaptic and sudo apt update and sudo apt upgrade, sudo apt install (package-name), etc. Many of my age group that I am trying to get to use Peppermint are not comfortable with that at all and are afraid of screwing things up.
-- I have kids that are in you age group between 16 and 20 ..... 8) I can relate to your perspective to some extent, I also see that aside from the really tech geeky folk, most people probably don't event look at the updates that are being installed especially the security updates. Even if you see the update icon 99% of the time most folk will just click install and not even think about it... so I agree with  you no one wants to go  in the terminal to run commands.. I also think it's lost time to click on the icon and then click install /apply the updates. Those clicks will equate to compounded lost time...in my opinion LOL  ;)
So, i was thinking  I wonder why not  just setup the system to check and install the security updates automatically, that would remove the need for the mint-update having to be shipped with Pep11 and keep the system updated.. 
This is kind of where you can capitalize on the systemd features in the Debian tree.  Here is a reference few links:
Debian:
https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades
Ubuntu:
https://itsfoss.com/auto-updates-ubuntu/

So to me it seems people like the mint-update for just the visuals, and piece of mind.. and i can understand that.

Now....then the question is..... what does mint-update do that I think is not a good fit for PeppermintOS?
If you open your software sources on Pep10 you will see the normal Pep PPA's and the Ubuntu main repos for updates and software and if you go in to terminal, and do the update thing.....it will go ONLY to those sources, . and update  the system
That connects is directly to the Pep PPA's and Ubunutu... this is fine and ok one place to get what you need,

Here is where the things start to not make sense to me. when you install mint-update it installs a package  called mint-mirrors you can find it here if you want to a look at it:
http://packages.linuxmint.com/pool/main/m/mint-mirrors
Extract the files and Open the file named linuxmint.list with a text editor
You will see a bunch of links to mirrors that is used to get updates through the Mint eco system and  those are used along with some other code to categorize and rate the updates you see in the mint-update gui
and there in lies the problem from my view.... instead of going directly to the source of what Peppermint is based on Ubuntu the mint-update will go to Linux-Mint eco system to get updates, that are for a system that Peppermint is not based on directly...  :-\ see what i mean......the logic does not make sense.... Now that is mintupdate version 5.6.9 somewhere along the lines Lmint updated it  to work this way.

Mark Greaves maintained his own Mint-Update located here:
https://launchpad.net/~peppermintos/+archive/ubuntu/p10-release/+packages

That is Version is based on 4.6.7 qiana that would have been Linux Mint 17 the problem with this is many of it dependencies have been deprecated or don't exist any longer the code base needs to be updated. The way 5.6.9 works has to be the reason why Mark never upgraded.

So the next question would be... why not update the code or fork 5.6.9......... ;D...hmmmmmm ..... for such a small team I cant really see that as a good long term strat....
That is what i mean by being dependent in a way on two distros at the same time.
Still a decision has not been made yet...  we are sort of at place where we are thinking about our options..

For me I really like the Automated strat because it set and you don't really need to think about it. and the risk is not any higher than just clicking install manually.

I hope this helps convey my thought on the mint-update manager   ;)

It is getting late now I will respond to your after thought about the Software Manager tomorrow
Again thank you for your, feed back it really is helpful.  8)












Offline The Omen

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2020, 06:33:18 am »
Hi grafiksinc,

Quote
So, i was thinking  I wonder why not  just setup the system to check and install the security updates automatically, that would remove the need for the mint-update having to be shipped with Pep11 and keep the system updated..

This automatic updating thing sounds an awful lot like a Microsoft Windows 10 way of doing things to me.

Windows takes away choice of how and when to do updates.

Are you proposing that Linux users would like and except not having a choice in this just like Windows???

When i first started learning Linux a few years ago, I actually asked if I was going to be forced to do updates when it was not a good time for me to do it, based on when the OS and the servers were forcing it down my throat, and especially with my computer at the time, (old and slow), would stop my homework dead in it's tracks until it did it's thing, and then shutting down for the night and not being able to, due to updating and installing, and parents yelling at me to shut it down now etc. I think you get my point here.

I was told that was the great thing about Linux, Your computer, your choice.

That would be probably the only thing that would make me look elsewhere for an OS, I like having a choice.

When you take choice away from people, they will choose to use something else, and I can guarantee thats what I will do if that does happen to be the future of Peppermint.

This is what arrogant Microsoft has done to it's users, because they decide what is best for it's users and does not let users decide whats best for themselves. It is like they own your computer and you have no say at all in what they do to it through their borked updates etc.

Regards,

The Omen
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 06:41:56 am by The Omen »

Offline grafiksinc

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2020, 06:47:46 am »
@theoman exactly ...right there with you that's why you always have a choice  to use automated features.... or terminal or mint-update... or any other update gui.  ;)

Offline Johan

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2020, 12:08:15 pm »
So the best way to check for updates is in the terminal? sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade But this is not done automatically. You have to check for updates manually, but this way is mentioned in video's I have seen as the best way anyway to check for updates.
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Offline The Omen

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2020, 12:42:07 pm »
Quote
So the best way to check for updates is in the terminal? sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade But this is not done automatically. You have to check for updates manually, but this way is mentioned in video's I have seen as the best way anyway to check for updates.

Hi Johan,

The only problem with the terminal update method is IF you have something in the Update Manager ignore list, Maybe something that just borks your system somehow, and you blacklisted that particular update into the ignore list, the terminal command will ignore your Update Managers ignore list and you will get that update as well.

Just Another reason why i want to keep Update Manager in the new Pepermint 11 when its released.

This would be very much a problem very quickly with me and I would not put up with it.

Regards,

The Omen
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 12:48:12 pm by The Omen »

Offline The Omen

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2020, 12:56:56 pm »
Hi grafiksinc,

Quote
@theoman exactly ...right there with you that's why you always have a choice  to use automated features.... or terminal or mint-update... or any other update gui.

OK, so your telling me that if you decide we will not have mint-update forthcoming as a default in Peppermint 11 that there will be some provision made to be able to install mint-update ourselves, and then guarantee that it will work???, and same with the Mint Software Manager too???

The Ubuntu versions of them would not be acceptable, at least to me, because of Canonicals insistance of shoving "snaps" down my throat. "snaps" have already been eliminated by the Mint team.

Regards,

The Omen
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 01:03:18 pm by The Omen »

Offline stevesveryown

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2020, 05:16:02 pm »
I want to personally thank grafiksinc for all the work he has done, not mentioning the time spent, on Peppermint 11.  As he stated in an earlier post many of the people that jumped on, jumped off.  Grafiksinc kept on, along with 2 others, who won't be mentioned, unless they want me to.  Everyone needs to realize that Peppermint 11 is going to be something unique and started by our beloved friend, and Peppermint leader, Mark Greaves.  Grafiksinc has a full plate and yet he has made time to respond to you in the forum.  As we are seeing all over Linuxland, and the open source community, devs are dropping projects because the lack of recognition, and more importantly, appreciation.

So everyone who reads this, please join me in thanking grafiksinc, and his 2 cohorts, for the time spent on developing the next version of Peppermint.

Thanks, Team!!!!!

Online VinDSL

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2020, 09:16:59 pm »
I want to personally thank grafiksinc for all the work he has done, not mentioning the time spent, on Peppermint 11.

Hear, hear!

Great job, grafiksinc (and cohorts). Much appreciated!   :)


Offline Slim.Fatz

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Re: XFCE 4.16 November and Peppermint 11
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2020, 12:49:00 am »
I agree completely with the comments by stevesveryown and VinDSL !! ;)

I only wish that I too had the computer skills necessary to jump in and assist with the technical side of this project.  :( Since I do not possess such skills, I spend my time here on the forum trying my best to keep spammers and worse off of the forum. We get at least several dozen such attempts to infiltrate our forum each day! It is really sickening to see and have to deal with this crap for a site that is only here to assist users of the best linux distro (PeppermintOS, of course) who might be having issues or are new to linux.

Keep up the great work, grafiksinc and the rest of the dev team !!  8)

Regards,

-- Slim
Respect science, respect nature, respect each other.

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